210 mm gyuto, gift to me for $250 budget. Need rec

Carbon or non-carbon? That's the kicker.

I think the OP was trying to say he wants to avoid carbon judging by this, or at least that he may not want to have to have to worry about staining too much.

 

 

 

 

Being I was recently working with a similar budget, but with a 240 gyuto as my target I know there are plenty of options in stainless, carbon, and semi stainless. Actually enough choices and different little changes to cause a good amount of research and comparison.

 

I do not have any carbon knives in the kitchen so I can not offer much feedback, but I do have a couple of hunting knives that are and though I have no real problems with corrosion there is some very, very small pitting on the older one (approx 1950-1960 range) but you can not see it unless you look real close or use some type of magnification. It is also highly mirror polished so I do not know if that matters.

 

Still I have stayed away from carbon in the kitchen I am finding that I believe what is still attracting me to it is more to do with curiosity from the many "believers" claims more than anything else.

 

This may be what led me to my recent decision on the Konosuke because it was touted to have ,most all the benefits of carbon knives (edge taking etc), but while also maintaining most of the non stain benefits (less worry etc) of SS.

 

All that out of the way I am sure others will chime in with the normal questions and comments, but until then I would think the OP really needs to question himself and respond as to what he is really expecting or looking for from the new purchase.

 

Maybe even let us know what you like and dislike about your current knives as that can be helpful as well.

 

Also if you look over some previous threads you will find lots of recommendations in your price range, and most all of those I have seen and considered are really nice knives that should be really good performers.

 

Since the Konosuke is the only knife I own in your price range (actually a bit higher but the length was longer too, but it is so easy to talk yourself up in price lol) I really can not offer any first hand information or comparison to other etc,  except for this one and it is one seriously nice knife that I would suggest you look into. It is also very different than many of the others that typically are suggested in this range as it is semi stainless, apparently semi hand made, and oh yea very much a laser as well.

 

Personally I wanted to try something that was as different as possible from my current J knives without having to rethink everything I think I already know that would also allow a good informative comparison. The idea was to solve multiple needs like improving on quality and performance, improving edge retention etc, but also not getting caught in whatever was the latest and greatest fad either.

 

I offer this experience because I think it may help you to understand that this does not have to be overwhelming (it still can be, but not as bad as your first J knife where everything is so different than the western knives most are coming from where absolutely everything is new and a learning process) if you just make a list of what features and actual jobs are important to you, and then eliminate the ones that do not fit from your long list.

 

Just take your time, and let the members help you with suggestions, and I believe you will find what your after!

There aren't that many good, semi-stainless 21cm knives out there.  Aritsugu A, Kikuichi TKC, Kagayaki CarboNext and Konosuke HD leap to mind.  After that... [crickets].  A question about semi-stainless... what about it, other than stain resistance, makes you want it?

 

Why a 210mm knife, why not a 240 or 270?

 

Must be a western (yo) handle, or could it be a wa?

 

It would help a great deal if you could narrow down what you want, but I recognize that if you really had a good idea you also have the research skills to do the looking without much input from us.  Still, don't be shy about adding salient details.

 

It seems you can sharpen, but how good a sharpener are you?  Be realistic, not modest.  How good is your sharpening kit?  What stones do you have?  As a sort of stray thought, what would you think about putting your "it's good to be the king" money into better sharpening equipment?

 

BDL

 

 

Martin, you clearly know what you're doing on sharpening, or if you don't, you know what to do about it. So I take that as a given, OK?

 

Reading your various posts, it looks to me as though you are looking for something because you want a toy. That's not a criticism: every knife crazy has been there. The one thing I hear from you is "I want to be able to make this thing insanely sharp." Everything else seems to be secondary.

 

Now I don't know very clearly what things cost these days. I don't monitor the sale sites. But I think what you want is something that sharpens terrifyingly well. It's not like you need a knife because you can't cut something, you've got everything you really need. You want something to play with -- and to fall in love with. Am I right?

 

If so, I cannot push the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto enough. It's carbon, of course, but it will patina rapidly and doesn't need ultra-constant treatment the way you might imagine. You simply have no idea how sharp it will get. And what's more, it will take that edge beautifully. It's fun to sharpen a KS knife. I don't know what they make that steel out of -- witchcraft and black magic, I suspect -- but you lay it on a stone and get started and almost immediately it's sharp. Then you start playing: how sharp can I get this on this stone, what's the best way, etc. And if you have any clue with sharpening, you pretty soon have something that will actually scare you. Nothing, but nothing, that I have ever sharpened, compares to Masamoto KS steel, in terms of ease, fun, and flat-out terror.

 

Length barely matters -- they run really long anyway. So I'd say grab a 210mm Masamoto KS wa-gyuto from the cheapest seller you can find, the difference probably being that it won't be pre-sharpened. It won't matter. 15 minutes and it will be very sharp. And I betcha in a week or so of using it you'll be wondering where this has been all your life.

 

Just guessing....

In my opinion, a couple great stainless options for you to consider are:

 

Sakai Yusuke:  sold by bluewayjapan on ebay

Gesshin Ginga sold by japaneseknifeimports

 

 

Your situations sounds similar to mine. 

1. Like stainless (or dislike the hassle of spotting, staining, rusting, etc... that comes with carbon or semi-stainless)

2. Already have some knives for heavier tasks so want something thin/light and that extra feeling of sharpness that comes with thinner knives

3. At home cook- my knife edges don't take 4 hours of pounding every day doing prep work on plastic boards

 

 

For these reasons I bought a sakai yusuke.  I haven't gotten it in the mail yet though (just ordered yesterday actually) but I'm very confident in the selection based on the above 3 criteria.  Well that and I had to have a japanese (wa) handle.  And there's not that many thin stainless options.

I get the point.  You can sharpen, you can sharpen.

 

Sakai Yusuke stainless doesn't have outstanding edge holding properties; more like mediocre.  It is a relative bargain as lasers go, but it's no longer a standalone at the price point; and I think it might be "wa" only.  I tend to think of a stainless Yusuke as the bargain version of a Tadatsuna Inox or Suisun Inox Honyaki -- but not as good.  Gesshin Ginga on the other hand...  I only hear good things.  Gesshin Ginga should be one of several knives on your short list.

 

Carbon is needy and needs rinse and wipe right away when it needs rinse and wipe at all.  Sushi bar level of care has as much to do with getting the taste of the last fish off the knife as it does with taking care of carbon; and they wipe their stainless knives just as often.  Frequent rinsing and wiping is always good practice with carbon -- but it doesn't have to be every two minutes.  We can talk more about it if you like.  And, given your price range, I'd at least consider some of the excellent carbons available.  Knives made with stainless and semi-stainless alloys which really compete with excellent carbons tend to run about 1/3 more expensive than their carbon equivalents.

 

I haven't heard back from you about semi-stainless knives, or about why 210mm.  What are your thoughts?

 

You haven't said you want a laser.  There are a lot of other choices, almost as thin, almost as light, but sturdier.  I wouldn't trade one of my Konosuke HDs, but I were to buy yet another new gyuto it would be more along the lines of a Masamoto KS -- or perhaps something stainless --  to fit between my HDs and Sabatier carbons.  However, you're looking for an all-round go-to gyuto and have plenty of heavy duty knives to back it up.

 

In addition to the Gesshin Ginga, you might also want to look at the Masamoto VG, Masamoto HC (if you can live with carbon), the Konosuke HD (which is a big favorite in this forum), the Tadatsuna (western handled) stainless, the Kagayaki Carbo Next (it comes with a crap edge, but is quite a good knife if you can sharpen well), Kikuichi TKC, MAC Pro, Sakayuki Grand Cheff (the AEB-L mono-steel, not the damascus or other san-mai versions) and perhaps the Richmond Remedy.  Not all of those knives are going to be available in 210. I recommend the MAC Pro more often than any other knife as a first, good Japanese gyuto and/or a first, really good chef's knife.  It's significantly less transition from a Euro than many other Japanese made, western style knives because of its excellent handle and stiffness (compared to other Japanese knives); and it has a much better warranty and factory support.  The Masamoto VG and HC are better handling, but more "Japanese."  On the other hand, the Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff and Remedy (made in the USA) are also easy transitions.  The Grand Cheff is an easy knife to get very sharp, so is the HC.  The VG and Pro a little less so. 

 

BDL

Edited by boar_d_laze - 1/31/12 at 9:38am

Few quick thoughts on semi stainless.

So far my new konosuke is acting more stainless than not and has zero signs of any spotting or corrosion. Pretty much looks like it did when it came out of the box.

I do rinse my blades often during use and clean up everything within approx 10-20min after use as well so I can not comment on leaving it full of acidic sticky stuff for a few hours etc but I don't do that to my SS knives either.

Not sure on the others mentioned above but I have heard mostly only good things about massamoto and am not fond of "house" brand knives.

Guess were at a point where you need to offer more on your thoughts and what is important to you.

martinc, if you don't want to deal with spotting on the knife, avoid the semi-stainless.  I do think semi-stainless makes for a great cutter.  At least from my experience owning a carbonext.  For example, side by side with my Mac Pro, and a VG-10 Shun, the carbonext is better at pretty much everything.  Lighter, more nimble, thinner near the tip, easier to get sharp, etc...  But I got rid of it because I didn't like the extra maintenance of semi-stainless, I felt my knife was always getting stained, or water spots, and it always bugged me to pull a clean knife out of the block and be looking at spots.  This is, completely, 100%, personal preference.  There are some "facts" about knives, but a TON of it is going to come down to personal preference.  IMO.  So for me, I like stainless better.  I wouldn't recommend the Mac Pro for you since you pretty clearly are stating that you want something for light duty jobs, which IMO it's fine to have a few different chef knives/gyutos and pick depending on the task.  I think the Mac Pro makes a pretty good workhorse, and as a transitional knife from german to japanese, but it's really stiff.  And that stiffness leads to feeling like the knife is thicker, more bulky, less nimble than other knives of the same size & thickness.  At least that is my experience, and the Mac Pro is currently my "go-to gyuto".  I also think the handle on the Mac is tiny (it's smaller than the carbonext that gets critized for being small) and mine came with a small hollow grind along the edge which I had an acquaintance from the knife boards fix for me (Saltydog). 

 

 

 

If you want stainless, and thin for lighter duty jobs, the sakai yusuke and gesshin ginga are great choices.  Based on what you write, I think you want thin.  Thin isn't super duper fragile and based on your posts, I think you can manage thin no problem.  Do some google searches, you'll find other boards, you'll get more diverse opinions.  The Gesshin is hardened further, probably around 61-62, so if you are really wanting to push your sharpening skills to get some of that last few % out of your knives, spend the extra 25% or $50 bucks and get the Ginga. 

 

Another option would be knives with an AS core and stainless cladding.  Some folks hate cladded knives, many folks love 'em.  The hiromoto AS and the kanehiro (both from CKTG) would be pretty doggone good options IMO.  The AS core is really hard and you can take it pretty damn acute.  The stainless cladding covers most of the knife but you still will have some reactive steel exposed along the edge.  The one Kanehiro made my finalists based on the hiromoto AS I handled with a custom wa handle.  But the kanehiro's were always out of stock and are a bit more expensive too.

I took my HD gyuto all the way down to a very asymmetric 8*, and worked my way back to a nearly 50/50 15*. I find that because the knife's so thin to begin with, acute angles and lopsided asymmetry don't make enough positive difference to compensate for the lesser durability compared to more conservative angles and geometry.

My best and most respected friend in the knife world, KC, likes his lasers with extreme edges, but believes in keeping polish levels significantly lower than I do. There are a lot of reasons we come down on different sides of the fence, but the biggest are that I'm more oriented towards durability and less towards absolute sharpness when it comes to angles and geometry; and the polish worth the extra time and wear on the good stones for as long as it lasts -- as far as I'm concerned.

My guess is that 12*, fairly symmetric, is near optimal for most people. To the extent that you get your angles that exactly (I can't, at least without a gag), I'd err more towards 15* than 10*. I think a very good 8K is the ideal polish for the HD knives.

I'm currently using a Gesshin 8K which is very expensive but great. My previous finishing stone was a Naniwa SS 8K, very good, less expensive, but the usual SS fine stone issues. I'd also recommend the Naniwa Pure White and Kitayama, alone or -- better yet -- in combination. The Gesshin polish and Pure White + Kitayama are pretty close, but the Gesshin is a helluva lot faster than either of the other two -- and take those two in combination, fuhgeddaboudid!

I know someone's going to ask about the Chosera 10K... I'd take the Pure White or the Kitayama singly -- let alone as a combo. The Chosera's a very fast, convenient stone, but I don't think the combination of sharp and slippery are as good as either of the other two. The Gesshin is about as much better as one polishing stone can be compared to another.

I'm not sure what the factory edge was like on the gyuto, but the HD suji came with something so convex and with so little visible bevel I couldn't give you an accurate estimate of what the underlying angle was before convexing. 15* wouldn't surprise me. If it matters to you, call Mark or Jon and ask someone who knows.

BDL

Martin which length and handle did you go with?

I agree with BDL that the OOTB edge was small and hard to gauge the angle. I did use a marker the very first time I sharpened it and for proper removal it was feeling like 15ish but that's far from a accurate measurement.

It is changed now (around 10 deg each side) and a bit asymmetric and even more enjoyable to use than before.

I also experiment with different angles and amounts asymmetry to find what fits my use best and will ha e to see where this one ends up, but so far after using for about two total hours the above is holding up fine.

For your purposes you should dry the stones thoroughly before putting them away. Best way is stand them on an edge, outside, out of direct light, for two day. However, weather can be an issue as well as space. The thing to remember is that you want them to dry out of direct sunlight, not over a heater, and at a relatively even temp. I don't think it's a good idea to pack them in foam or anything else which will hold moisture.

For storage, don't overtrain. I use cheap, plastic, "school boxes" I got at Staples for beaucoup cheap. Cardboard is good too. Cigar boxes if they aren't too short. Punch a few holes in them so air can circulate and your stones don't mildew.

There's nothing wrong with the boxes they came in, for that matter. Just try to keep them dry.

Stones can be stored on edge or flat, as long as they're not touching or have a couple of paper towels between them. Or so they say. Mom! He's TOUCHING me!

BDL

Is mold a common problem?

Has anyone had mold develop on a stone that was not fully dry before putting it back in its box etc?

Is this more of a concern with certain stones?

Only one I can be 100% sure that it was put away completely dry is the shapton glass stone.

Water stones are porous, dry slowly, and are usually stored in a tight, dark environment. Is mold a common problem? Yes. However, it's not a problem until it's a problem. Drying your stones is the first defense. They're going to dry anyway, so dry them right. Dry them slowly and evenly so they don't craze or form "pot holes." If mold does form (probably smell it before you see it), you can soak your stones in diluted bleach.

BDL

I've just been sitting the stones "up" in the boxes they came in until they dry. What I mean is that I rest part of the stone on the edge of the box so it only has two small contact points (one edge and one spot the width of the cardboard) so lots of room to dry easily. Seems alright so far.

Well I do not have any special or elaborate drying method either, and for the 1-1/2 or so years I have my whetstones I have pretty much just let them air dry and then box them in the original one they came with. Time wise depends on when the stone is used in my progression and coarser ones get to dry a bit longer while the finer ones are being used, and the last finishing stone gets approx 30-45 min dry time before being boxed.

So far no signs of mold, and hope it stays that way.


Oh and no need to worry about the 210 length as if it works for you then its the right length.
I do agree with all the popular thoughts on longer being more productive or really a non issue etc, but ultimately you need what your comfortable with and all the other concerns come secondary. I have friends who are very happy with their main knife being even shorter, and one just loves her 180mm DP gyuto. Of course these are home use examples and my thinking on professional use is not the same as production and a certain level of expectations of skill etc change the rules some.

Either way happiness and comfort are what really matters, and you seem very happy with yours.

It is interesting that yours may need to be softened as the spine on the one I received was smooth and rounded off very nicely. It is actually better OOTB as some that I had relieved myself in the past.

 

 

 

All three of mine were perfectly crowned ootb. Martin, yours is also losing its ootb edge pretty quickly. It sounds like the first "Friday afternoon" Kono I've heard about.

Send the dealer an e-mail, if only to let him know.

BDL
Edited by boar_d_laze - 2/14/12 at 9:06am