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Knife length 240 or 270mm?

post #1 of 11
2/9/12 at 8:14am
Thread Starter 
So I don't want to start another "What knife to get" thread. :-) I have read every thread on knifes here and at knifeforums. And for my first real, good chef knife I am leaning towards the Kagayaki CarboNext series. A Gyuto. With an edge pro sharpener to help me learn about sharpening properly before I start on my own and tear up the knife freehand sharpening. I wanted to ask about length. The knife I had been using was an 8" chef. But I have read several posts from BDL and some others that a 10" hence the 270mm would be a better choice. I have no preference really. I only have experience with an 8" but am by no means bound to 8". So I am leaning towards the 270mm rather than the 240mm. I just wanted to get some opinions on size. The 270 has that extra length making it easier to cut through certain things like ribs. Of what I have read there are actual benefits to using a 270 over 240. It's not just a "See, our amp goes to 11." kind of thing :) So as to try not to leave any information out... Hopeful Usage: Home kitchen and commercial kitchen. Actual Usage: Home. I am trying to get a kitchen job somewhere and would like to be able to take it to work. Your usual cutting, dicing, mincing, chopping of fruits and veggies, de-boning chickens and other proteins. What say you? Chris
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post #2 of 11
2/9/12 at 9:49am
Most people will feel less difference between 240 and 270 than between either 210 and 240, or 270 and 300. If that seems intuitively wrong, it makes more sense if you think of 210 as "short" and 300 as "long," but as 240 and 270 as being the short and long sides of "medium;" that is, 240 is14mm and 270 is 16mm from medium's 10" sweet spot.

Most home cooks stepping up from an 8" knife find a 240 a bit more manageable than a 270. If you're using a typically sized cutting board, that's even more true. If you already have the skills, or are working hard to acquire them, we're back to the "it doesn't matter that much" analysis.

CarboNexts are very nice and huge bang for the buck. But buy if and only if you're already a good sharpener or have someone who can profile a knife from jump street. The CarboNext out of the box edge is really crappy and JCKs ES sharpening service sucks.

Hope this helps,
BDL
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post #3 of 11
2/9/12 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
I had heard both good and bad about the edge on it OOTB. What is your opinion on the Edge Pro sharpeners? Like the entry level Apex 1? Good tool? Waste of money trinket?
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post #4 of 11
2/9/12 at 10:18am
I've used 2 CarboNexts. The one without Extra Sharpness was better. The edge was better even. It just so happens the grind was better too, though this is coincidental to the declination of the ES service. So there's a little hit and miss, though neither of the two I've used needed major reprofiling. They both got better after sharpening, even by a newbie sharpener. The steel is very easy to sharpen and the blade is pretty darn thin, making it easier still.

I have no knowledge of the EdgePro - I imagine it would all go double for that. Unless you have to do major reprofiling.
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post #5 of 11
2/9/12 at 10:41am
Thread Starter 
That sums up what I have heard for the most part. It's hit or miss. Some have paid for the ES service and gotten hair shaving sharpness OOTB others not so much. I think its a dice roll honestly. All I can say is that the vast majority agree that the knife is the best bang for the buck and the blade is very good. You just may have to work to get it into the very good stage OOTB. But the potential is there. It just might take some owners more work than others to get a good edge on it and sharpen it up. But for the price and quality of the knife I think its hard to beat. That's the consensus from all I have read anyway. I am really excited to start sharpening via stone. I think hand sharpening by stone looks quite learn-able. It doesnt look like magic or voodoo. So I think it's within my capabilities I just need practice. Slow and steady. Thanks for the reply wagstaff its always good to hear from those who have used the product you are wanting to purchase. How did you like using the CN's? I dont know how long you used them or for what task. What are your opinions on weight, use for long periods, etc?

Thanks as always to all for helpful and knowledgeable replies! I love this place :-)

Chris
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post #6 of 11
2/9/12 at 11:54pm

I got a CarboNext as well, and went for the 24 cm instead of the 21 that I was used to. The difference was easy to deal with. Looked a bit intimidating at first though.

I didn't pay for the extra sharpening and sharpened it almost as soon as I got it on the JCK whetstone (1000/4000) and it got a lot sharper! And I'm also not an experienced sharper.

Good luck with your knife!

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post #7 of 11
2/10/12 at 9:43am

If you have any confidence in yourself what so ever to sharpen a knife, just buy the CN and sharpen it yourself.  It's not really rocket science.  The semi-stainless is pretty easy to sharpen and you're not likely to screw it up really. 

 

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post #8 of 11
2/10/12 at 11:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by racineboxer View Post

If you have any confidence in yourself what so ever to sharpen a knife, just buy the CN and sharpen it yourself.  It's not really rocket science.  The semi-stainless is pretty easy to sharpen and you're not likely to screw it up really. 

I may just do that. Any recommendation on what stone to use? Ive never used stones before.
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post #9 of 11
2/10/12 at 6:38pm
This is where we run into problems. In order to proflle a good edge you're going to want to work with something fast and coarse like a Beston 500 for instance. However, if you make normal "rookie" mistakes with a stone that fast they're going to take you a looooooooooooong time to correct. That's why I suggest that if you can't already sharpen and/or don't have someone to at least lay in a good edge for you making a different choice than the CarboNext.

The better your sharpening and knife skills, the more subtle differences in knives mean. The truth is that for most people -- specifically including people just starting to move up to better equipment and focus on their skills there are several knives at any given price point which suit them equally well and make them equally happy. When push comes to shove, I think most people looking for that first good chef's knife are better buying a blade with better quality control and better customer support. A MAC Pro, for instance. Since the primary benefits of a CarboNext are its edge taking and holding qualities, people who aren't very good sharpeners won't experience them anyway... and why take the risk?

Whatever knife you buy, if you're committed to sharpening freehand on bench stones I think CKtG still sells the Beston 500 / Bester 1200 / Suehiro Rika 5000 as a three stone kit -- and at an attractive discount. It's not the least expensive path, but it's a very good way to start if you want high quality stones you won't grow out of for awhile. (Disclosure: I have a commercial relationship with CKtG, writing for their newsletter and doing some equipment testing/reviewing.) Relationship aside, it's a very popular combination. A less expensive alternative would be to put together a combi King with a relatively inexpensive, coarse stone. You'll have to make some provision for flattening, before you use your stones for the first time. If money's an issue, I suggest drywall screen; if not, an 8" DMT XXC.

BDL
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post #10 of 11
2/10/12 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

This is where we run into problems. In order to proflle a good edge you're going to want to work with something fast and coarse like a Beston 500 for instance. However, if you make normal "rookie" mistakes with a stone that fast they're going to take you a looooooooooooong time to correct. That's why I suggest that if you can't already sharpen and/or don't have someone to at least lay in a good edge for you making a different choice than the CarboNext.
The better your sharpening and knife skills, the more subtle differences in knives mean. The truth is that for most people -- specifically including people just starting to move up to better equipment and focus on their skills there are several knives at any given price point which suit them equally well and make them equally happy. When push comes to shove, I think most people looking for that first good chef's knife are better buying a blade with better quality control and better customer support. A MAC Pro, for instance. Since the primary benefits of a CarboNext are its edge taking and holding qualities, people who aren't very good sharpeners won't experience them anyway... and why take the risk?
Whatever knife you buy, if you're committed to sharpening freehand on bench stones I think CKtG still sells the Beston 500 / Bester 1200 / Suehiro Rika 5000 as a three stone kit -- and at an attractive discount. It's not the least expensive path, but it's a very good way to start if you want high quality stones you won't grow out of for awhile. (Disclosure: I have a commercial relationship with CKtG, writing for their newsletter and doing some equipment testing/reviewing.) Relationship aside, it's a very popular combination. A less expensive alternative would be to put together a combi King with a relatively inexpensive, coarse stone. You'll have to make some provision for flattening, before you use your stones for the first time. If money's an issue, I suggest drywall screen; if not, an 8" DMT XXC.
BDL

And this gets back to why I was asking about the Edge Pro system for sharpening. Over @ Knife forums it seems to be a well recommended tool for sharpening. As a I side I had originally thought of the Mac Pro. It just seems to have fallen out of the top recommendation spot lately. Most seem to favor the CN. This is what makes it so hard for someone like me to make the right choice. Not just me either considering the amount of threads on here alone about "What knife to buy?" Just when I think I have made a choice and am about to pounce! smile.gif

Hmmm back to the selection board maybe. Ill go check out MAC's site again.
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post #11 of 11
2/10/12 at 7:44pm
I'm currently using four sharpening kits:
Bench oil stones;
Bench water stones;
Strop kit built around an HA base; and
EP Kit 1, with CKtG kit of Chosera sharpening stones.

I like the EP a lot; especially for sharpeners who don't want to fool with the freehand learning curve. To give that some perspective, there is an EP learning curve as well, but it's very flat -- maybe 10 knives. The free hand learning curve is considerably steeper -- even to get to "adequate." But it certainly can be mastered, and it's not really that difficult either. You can do things sharpening freehand you simply can't do with an EP, but it's quite unlikely most people will ever want to do them.

MAC vs CarboNext: If you know what you're doing -- and this is at the end of an EP's capabilities, more in the ballpark of an expert freehand sharpener -- you can make the CN sharper than a MAC. It's also considerably thinner, so everything else being equal the CN will feel a bit sharper. It's also lighter, and will probably feel a bit more agile to most hands.

On the other hand, the MAC is very thin and agile compared to almost any western made knife, and takes and holds a great edge. It's very stiff as Japanese knives go, which is a quality most people moving to Japanese knives for the first time really like. The quality control is much higher than the Kagayaki CN, the blade comes very sharp out of the box, the manufacturer support is fantastic, and the retailer support is also stronger.

The CN is a good knife, so is the MAC. The MACs been around for a long time, the CN is flavor of the month. What can I say?

BDL
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