Richmond Ultimatum - Page 2

That's mutual BDL. Just because every one here doesn't always see eye to eye on every topic it doesn't imply there's any loss of respect.

Having said that it is my personal belief that those who get paid for reviews, receive discounts, loaners or any other form of compensation should simply refrain from commenting on those products or suggesting those vendors in other threads.

If they can not or will not, I think that says far more than I could ever put in to words.

If all those folks who are happy with their knives or other purchases stop participating or posting reviews on CT simply because a paid reviewer doesn't think they know "diddly" then I'd venture a guess that participation here will only slip further.

At least that's my .02  (adjusted for inflation)

 

Dave
 

 

Edited by DuckFat - 3/21/12 at 1:58pm

I don't think they should refrain, just disclose.  I'd rather have the opportunity to determine for myself how much credence to afford their review. 

How's your Japanese?  Better than mine, I hope!  I don't think that's a conspiracy to build up CKtG so much as a reflection of the difficulties of dealing direct with a company half the world away while conducting business in another language.  A friend of mine conducts business with his Japanese agents every day, and even with a skilled interpreter it's fraught with risks and frustrations.

 

Sorry, not trying to snipe or cherry pick lines to rebut, just pointing out that it's nice to let someone else worry about the language barrier, allowing me to just get my danged knife!

 

I never had any language issues and don't speak a word of Japanese. It's very common for Japanese companies to have an English speaking Rep. Most of them put US re-sellers to shame when it comes to customer service. That's simply a part of their culture. I've ordered from and spoken directly to Koki at JCK, Hidekei at Ikkanshi and Suisin (via Dreamworks) many times and never had any issues. I've no idea if it's fear or some thing more nefarious that promotes the idea that it's overly complicated ordering direct but that has not been my experience. Shipping was easy and cost effective. I would expect your "friend" with the interpreter is having issues with customs due to importing products to re-sell. A retail customer never has to deal with that. Kitchen knives ship direct to your home from Japan. I've received items just as fast as I have from WI and I'm only a few states away. All this will of course depend on which company you buy from and of course there are numerous free language converters now.

 

Dave

I think you pretty much covered the short list!  Sure, the bigger companies have some reps conversant in English.  But that's not at all true of most of the companies.  In Tokyo English is pretty common.  But according to everyone I know that's spent time in Japan, English is pretty rare in Kyoto.  And Kyoto has a much better claim to being the knife capital of Japan than Tokyo!

 

You're right about Koki, though.  JCK is a great place to shop if they have the item you want.  I'm always amazed at how fast EMS gets stuff from Japan to my doorstep!  They're another company that sources some hard-to-find items that I love.  The best example for me is the Kagayaki CarboNext.  Initially this was pretty much a rebranded Kikuichi TKC.  Over the last year or two the lines have diverged a bit but the CarboNext remains one of my favorite knives.  In fact, I'm having my 240 rehandled as soon as I can get it to the UPS store.

Many of the major makers have English speaking reps but certainly we can find some that would be more difficult. I haven't dealt with Aritsugu but I'd venture a guess they'd be on the list of being more difficult to deal with as well as many of the smaller makers. However there are a number of sites set up for direct ordering. I can think of examples where it would work to a buyers benefit either way. I find it a lot more fun getting a package from Japan but I do agree that won't always work. Perhaps we should start a list of those we can order direct from or even better yet ask for a sticky thread and create a complete list of knife makers, custom makers, language converters and retailers so we can get back to talking about knives and not dealers.

 

 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

 

http://www.suisin.co.jp/English/

 

http://www.kikuichimonji.com/

 

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/index.htm

 

http://kikuichi.net/

 

http://www.mizunotanrenjo.jp/index_e.html#

 

http://www.shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nenohi.co.jp%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

 

 

 

 

Ikkanshi which is sadly closed. No idea if it's a result of the Japanese disaster or just temporary;

http://www.itkitchenknife.com/e_index.shtml

Edited by DuckFat - 3/23/12 at 9:47am

Watanabe has the funniest site, for sure.  I remember his "busy-ness" chart from a couple years ago.  Yeah, some of the makers are easy to deal with, many are hard to work with if you don't speak Japanese.

 

Dave,

 

I don't pay for reviews on our site. Period. When a customer places an order for a knife they are given an automated email after 20 days that asks for a review and sends them to the form. That's how they get into the site. There are somthing like 2,000 reviews on the stie and all of them were given to us by actual users. Most of my customers enjoy them.

 

With respect to the videos, some of them are in fact paid or done with trades. Some pictures are paid for as well but many of both are given to me for free. Videos take work to do and they're for entertainment mostly to exibit the knife in action. I think they add something to the site. The sharpening videos on the site that I mostly did myself are the most popular pages on the website.

 

As for the knife in question they've been on sale for about 2 weeks so there are not that many out there yet. If you have any other questions on the Ultimatum or any other knife I have planned I would be happy to aswer them. 

 

One other thing. BDL gave me an article to publish in my newsletter for free which was something that he wrote and published months ago on his blog. We talked about doing some newsletter articles if the future for money but none of that has happened yet. He's a damn good writer and very knowledgable so I'm looking forward to working with him in the fuure. If I do ask him to write about a particular knife in the future you can be sure that I'll send him the knife in questions (unless he has one all ready) so he can try it. If he likes it or not that's up to him. I just sent a Grand Chef to writer at Cooking Light when they called and said they wanted to write and review it. Usually they send it back when they're done with it. I didn't ask them what they were going to say and the same goes with BDL.

 

Thanks all you folks for paying attention to my knives. I appreciate you even considering them against some of the other great knives out in the world.

 

Mark

I had some problem with editing and duplicate posts etc but the post below should be what I meant to post etc.
Edited by LennyD - 3/26/12 at 6:07am

I have to admit I was expecting something like this (the real subject of most replies in this thread) was going to happen, and honestly believe open discussion will be beneficial to everyone.

The questions and concerns need to be discussed openly and without any bias towards the poster who may share an opinion that is not popular or may not be flattering to a well respected member. We need to be open in this, if response feels otherwise it may seem like the poster is being attacked for his reply or opinion, or even worse etc.


I think Mark does a fine job as a knife retailer or etailer or whatever you prefer to call it and I also think CT is one of the best sites to find good honest and usable information on many Knives including those from Japan, but I also know from first hand experience that when a site or some of its members get too close with a vendor it can create a real problem, and in some cases really degrade the value and "cheapen things" to a point that some may find uncomfortable.

I have to be honest that this is not an easy post for me as I do want to be respectful to those who have helped me in the past (members and vendors alike) but still be clear that even when it may be with the best intentions it is not healthy when a vendor fully penetrates into the membership to a point where these relationships affect the tone, direction, feel, or integrity of opinion etc.
It is just a bad direction for things to go and even the most unbiased sites with the most experienced members can end up being a tool for a vendor, and ultimately lose much of it's true value to its readers.

We have to remember that a enthusiasts based forum is different than a business even though it may be a profitable business itself, and that any businesses main objective is to make money and grow profits etc, but also know this is part of the issue that is creating the problem or the replies questioning the relationship.


I also know some have been trying to walk a thin line where they remain both unbiased and maintain a relationship with the vendor etc. and I also know I believe the intent once again is good.

Can this be done? Is there a point where it can not, or just a point where it changes the flavor of everything.?

I really hope you all can find a comfortable level of vendor involvement in the site so that it can remain as powerful and helpful to others in the future as it been to me in the past, and just not cheapen things to the point that everything becomes a worthless add.

I do have some other thoughts that should be helpful, but they will have to wait

Hmmmm so you prefer it stiff huh.

Thanks for keeping it classy.  That really added to the dialog.

Hey thanks! :)

 

Yes the knife is stiff. I'll be making some thin sujis down the road that will have a little flex to them but I usually feel like gyutos should be stiff since they are used for so many different tasks.

 

Mark

 

you the man mark,! thanks for every thing you do!

Ooops, missed the smiley!  Just giving you some crap, LennyD!

That's OK Phaedrus at least you refrained from joining the "RAH RAH RAH GO GO GO TEAM" club and spared us any extra juvenile cheers for the team lmao

Now can we get back to discussing cooking Knives

It looks like this is winding down but I have a humorous anecdote.  For awhile I've been discussing knives with someone looking to get one very nice one.  After many conversations he found something he liked at JCK.  After a couple more discussions I suggested he e-mail Koki; he's well known to hand pick out something specifically suited to your needs.  Well, after an email chat and a phone call he cheerfully offered a version that was the exact opposite of what was asked for!  And Koki is one of the best ones.  It just goes to show that communications is tricky in any language, especially a foreign one.

 

BTW, I think that after a few more communiques the both got on the same page.  I'll probably get a chance to check out the knife next week sometime.

a humorous anecdote...or perhaps just one more stab at the competition...

Edited by chinacats - 4/6/12 at 8:43pm

Um, I don't have any competition, buddy.  Is it not sinking in yet? 

Oh that's right, you only work for Mark...and yes it has sunk like the mighty Titanic...

It's become something of an article of faith that there are people paid -- or at least bribed -- to tank for CKtG who will do anything to steer business to Mark.  It's completely untrue, which makes it very distressing.  Mark is as ethical and honest as anyone in the business. 

 

Re. JCK:  Koki is a great guy, who will try to go the extra mile towards setting you up with a suitable knife; and JCK has an interesting selection.  Sadly, I've heard from a couple of guys who have been very unhappy with warranty and quality  issues which have gone through JCK's San Diego office.  

 

When it comes to matching customer to blade, you've got to give kudos to Mark and Jon too.  IMO they each do a better job than Koki of matching knife to customer.  Maybe that's because they're available by phone.  JKI's selection is extremely well edited, while CKtG's is much broader.   All three are better than Korin -- Korin can give out some strange "information."

 

BDL

Please lets just try to keep all options open so that the site can best benefit it's members, and make it appear that there is some kind of steering to any merchant, and an added bonus would be the absence of people calling anyone here a paid for anything.

I guess we may need to compare to how politicians deny any to do with favoritism towards donators etc. It may be true, and often is, but just looks bad and the many who may be on the up and up bear the brunt of those who have not been as much were.

Then again maybe just like in politics things would seem less open to problems if there were not any questionable relationships to begin with.
I mean I like CKTG and will buy from them in the future but that also applies to Japanese knife imports, cutlery and more, and others as well.

I believe where this problem stems from is how recently all the talk and reviews have been arond o.e vendor and the concurrent various relationships while the mention of others has simultaneously fallen off.

Coincidence or not this seems to be what is behind the questions and suspicions

Man, you're quite a piece of work!  I sharpened a handful of knives sometime early last year, now you've got me on the payroll!  I better see if I get full bennies!  You know, 401k, vision.

 

It that's how it works on your planet it must be tough to turn a profit. 

 

If you doubt the anecdote, email Koki.  It was this week so I'm sure he'll remember the guy.

I'm a relative newbie to both this forum and high-quality knives.

 

While I think it is helpful to know about any type of business relationship between a reviewer (or poster here) and the various companies, it seems a gross oversimplification to relegate an informed review to be so heavily biased to be absolutely untrustworthy because there is "some" kind of relationship.  I (along with many others, I suspect) have spent hours and hours poring over the various posts and viewpoints here, and find them incredibly helpful.  Particularly some of the more frequent posters that have a long history and experience with a wide range of knives.  I'm glad they're here, and sharing their knowledge, and even if there is some type of relationship between them and companies and they get some marginal benefit from the company, a longstanding interest in cooking knives, and an obvious interest in sharing that knowledge and experience with this community makes me think that they are doing this much more to be helpful to a lot of us here, rather than so they can get free products or business.  I also factor in the hundreds or thousands of posts people have made, and all the time spent reading and responding to various people here.  The "business relationships" noted here seem quite insignificant in comparison.

 

This is a relatively small community, and we, the knife-obsessed, and the companies that serve us (CKTG, JKI, JCK, etc.) need each other.  In making decisions, I consulted with both Mark and Jon, and found both to be very helpful and expedient in their replies to multiple questions.  They are different from other companies in their interest in educating and serving the community, which is also good business for them, whether it's in the short- or long-term.  I love Amazon for a lot of things, but don't expect that kind of service from them.

Personal ethics and fanboyism aside I do find it intriguing that such an ambiguous off hand comment at the start of this thread made a few jump so high.

There have been occasions where I felt that if the "steering" to a given vendor was any more obtuse it could leave the reader with blunt force trauma.

Dredging this thread back up after it was left for dead probably falls in that category as well even with the "anecdotal" story.

 

 

Dave

 

Edited for brevity

Edited by DuckFat - 4/8/12 at 2:23pm

Hey Duck Fat Dave ... I'm curious if you have made it known that you yourself are a knife-maker and vendor? I'm also curious if anyone here has done any business with you, and what are their opinions? I'd bet that they would have good interesting reviews. I'm sure you should get some quality references from some of the CT members. Could you please give us a link where we could see some of your personal products please. TIA for a heads-up here. 

Sorry to disappoint. I'm not a knife maker or a vendor of any product. I don't get paid for reviews nor do I receive any special discounts from any vendor.

 

 

Dave

Very well said!

I believe many feel like you describe etc. and pretty much agree myself as well, but also prefer this stays that way, and honestly am not sure that any future increase in the amount of or depth of these "relationships " will benefit things remaining as we all have come to enjoy them.

That said this is still in my opinion the best site around for finding better help with decisions on quality cutlery from a very strong cooking or use standpoint and also with out at due ware near the level of fanfare and fanatical thinking that seems to drive popular thinking and opinion at some other sites.

And personally I like Chefs Talk the way it has been, and completely prefer it over the more commercially driven sites. I hope most would agree, and that these comments are welcomed