German Profile Knives

I do not own one, but Chef's Resource carries the KAI Japan (parent of Shun) Seki Mago Roku line of knives.

 

240mm run from $35 to $45

 

KAI Seki Mago Roku AUS 8 240 mm

 

http://www.chefsresource.com/kai-4000st-chefs-knife-9.html

Forschner are always a good choice.

Forschners are very much German profile; and the OP said he was trying to get away from that.

You're pretty much looking at the Kai 4000ST, the MAC Original, and the slightly more expensive Richmond Artifex. I've only had real experience with the MACs -- which are good knives for the price. The Kai 4000ST line has something of a bad rep for issues related to the blade alloy (AUS 8 ranges from good to awful depending on a lot of things). The Artifex is developing a reputation as punching way above its weight -- but I've never actually tried one.

IMO, the other entry level knives, the Fujiwara FKM and Tojiro DP don't provide enough extra performance to make up for their much higher prices as "house" line knives. I'd go with the Artifex.

OTOH, that recommendation may put the cart before the horse. What are your plans regarding maintenance and sharpening?

BDL

 

 If you start buying staff knives in the price range of Macs or higher your tools will be walking out the door faster than you can replace them. Forschner is a nice step up from some of the stuff that Sysco carries. I'd focus more on price point and quality than profile.

 

 

Dave

Many cooks learned to master knife skills with Forschners, and many still do, as it is still one of the most popular choices for student's knife kits in culinary schools all over N. America.

 

I don't know how many times I've said this, but ,   A knife is just a hunk of  steel with a sharp edge, the magic is in the user's hands.

 

Upgrading to a J knife or harder steels won't improve knife skills, practice, lots of practice will.

 

Keep the boning knives, as far as I know, there isn't a Japanese equivalent, and softer steels are better for boning knives, as they get knocked around bones a lot.

 

Keep the paring knives, these are "front line" knives, a strawberry won't know the difference what kind of knife cut's it's top off, neither does a potato.  These are the knives that get used to open boxes and tend to get thrown out with vegetable trimmings in the garbage--keep the knives until they are used up and I guarantee you will replace them with the same or cheaper quality knife.

+1 to Foodpump with one niggle and one addition. 

 

Niggle:  If you're more comfortable with a French than a German profile, go for French.  While a French profile won't magically confer skillz, there are some constants.  German profiles are more powerful, and work better for people who don't keep their knives really sharp.  French profiles are lighter (everything else being equal), more agile, and more rewarding to sharp edges and better knife skills. 

 

Also, Forschner chef's knives take a LOT of steeling to maintain their edge through a busy shift.  While I agree with every word Pump said about Forschner chef's, I still don't like them very much.  Soft blade alloys which constantly go out of true is almost universally true about German profiled  knives in general.  Offhand, the only exception is Messermeister (expensive). 

 

Addition:  If anything, Pump underplayed the amount of abuse short knives see.  So if, as an exec or operator, you're purchasing paring knives for the entire line, you might want to consider buying serrated Forschners by the case.  The serrated edges will give you good service for long enough that it's a lot cheaper to use them til they die then throw them away than it is to use employee time or a service to resharpen a "better" fine edged knife.  Disposable economics might be true of the $5 fine edged Fibrox Forschners as well. 

 

In terms of just plain agreement about meat knives like breakers, boners, cimeters, etc.  Forschner manages to be the professional "gold standard," and is also extremely affordable.  What more do you want? 

 

BDL

 

Since you know sharpening the biggest surprise for me with water vs oilstones was the mess. Waterstones make a filthy mess by comparison. WAtch videos and most folks use them over a sink or like Jon at Japanese Knife Imports on some container to capture the mud and swarf.

 

Get a glass board as your flat surface and some drywall screen to flatten the stones or any of the various lapping products available.

I've been using/abusing the $70 diamond flattening plate from JKI and it is less fuss than screen and glass.

 

Jim

You can still find carbon Sabatier knives.  The two best brands are K Sabatier, which you can find at sabatieroutlet.com and is pretty reasonably priced, and Thiers Issard Four Star Elephant Sabatier from thebestthings.com, but they are a bit pricier.  Four star also also has a Nogent line which is what I guess would be the original classic design with wooden nogent style handles and, of course, carbon steel.  This line is made from all pre-war forgings, which is pretty cool.  I just ordered a Nogent 9 inch flexible fillet knife today and am really excited to try it out when I get it, I've never had a carbon knife before, and I've been searching for a long time for an 8-10" carbon flex fillet knife.  And also, I second the Forschners for house knives, can't beat 'em for the price.

Don't be confused by the logo.  Quatre Etoile (what you're calling "Four Star") and Elephant were two separate Sabatier marques which never exited as one before each was  purchased by Thiers-Issard at separate times who then united their respective symbols on their own (T-I) knives.  So calling the Nogents "Four-Star Elephant" is something of a misnomer. 

 

T-I claims that the identity or identities of the makers which actually manufactured the pre-war forgings is or are lost.   I'm pretty sure that neither Quatre Etoile or Elephant supplied many -- if any -- of the blades.  

 

The T-I Nogents have exactly the same type of ebony handle that this style of knife always had.  What don't you like about the handles?  What kind of handle would you prefer on the tang?  

 

BDL 

ALL T-I knives made and/or sold since 1958 have both the Quatre Etoile and Elephant logos screened on the blades -- so their presence doesn't mean much by way of identification.

 

In re those bad "full-tang" handles, it sounds like the scales shrunk as a result of poor storage which allowed humidity and temp changes to work their evil.  Where did you get them?  The Best Things?  If it's not too late, return them. 

 

If it is:

 

(1) Sometimes shrunken wooden handles can be restored by soaking them in mineral oil for a couple of days, then daily, then weekly oil rubbing until the handles are fully stabilized.  However, beyond a certain level of cruddiness, you're SOL with restoration;

 

(2) There are people who do handle repair and replacement, but the service doesn't cheap.  If you're interested in having it done, I'd start asking around the various kitchen knife forums to find something inexpensive enough to suit what aren't terribly expensive knives to begin with; or,

 

(3)  SOL.  Fuhgeddaboudid.

 

BDL

I've rehandled a few knives as well as a few favorite spatulas, it's fairly easy to do

 

Drill out the existing rivets, these are copper and butter-soft.

 

Choose a durable wood.  A neighbor tossed out a teak patio table a few years back and I scored about 20 bdft of teak. White oak, beech or maple will work as well.  Shape the handle to your liking. Use to old handle side (called scales) as a drilling pattern.

 

Lee Valley (www.leevalley.com) sells copper rivets.  These are two piece, one resembling a nail, the other with a hollow shaft.  Basically you pound the two together and squish them into one solid rivet.

M/O can work some wonders on dried wood. I'll post a pic of the pile of old Chicago Cutlery and similar knives that have been under treatment since Sunday.

 

I scrub the wood clean, wipe the water off, blow it out of the gaps, and air dry overnight before treating. Seems to work better that way.

 

Jim

I didn't get a shot of the current batch but here is a before and after of one batch a few months ago...

 

 

 

Once the current batch is finished I'l get a group after shot.

 

Jim

Current wood pile after treatments. They were various stages like the first set were before.

 

M/O can be amazing.

 

Jim

This may not be a viable way to get better knives for a reasonable price, but for a while I use to buy older chefs knives on ebay, then recondition them and resell to the customers of my sharpening business.

 

For me I looked for damadged handles with good blades that were not the first pick for a "User" then rehandle clean up and sharpen.

 

There were some good deals to be found, just may take some time.

 

God Bless

Mike