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a small quandary..... - Page 2

post #31 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChefBillyB View Post

Joey, I agree with you, when you have a great looking sauce it gets lost in the mix. In my opinion your sauce is king and should be the center of attention. I feel the pasta should always be tossed with the "at least the liquid part of the sauce" to absorb the flavor of the sauce and then put the star attraction over the top. I don't know if you can accomplish the right mix if this is done by placing the sauce over the cooked pasta and get sauce/flavor being absorbed into the pasta. I watch Mario Batali on his show, he makes a good looking red sauce, when he tosses it with the pasta and plates it, it looks like hell. I always try to make my pasta dishes show case the sauce, this is the whole deal about plate appeal and presentation. I have been through Italy, I could care less whats done their, I only care whats .accepted within the walls of my own Restaurant.................The best......Chefbillyb

 

If you do so believe that sauce is a star ingredient, which I disagree that it is, why stop at using the pasta as a pedestal to show case it?  Why not serve just the sauce itself in a pretty bowl at the table and surround it with things to dip into it like big noodles or breadsticks?  Otherwise leave the pasta & sauce combo as it is meant to be. If you've married the two correctly then there shouldn't be a puddle of  sauce on the bottom of your plate when the noodles are gone.  And if there is then it should be placed in a bowl and called a soup. 

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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post #32 of 83

Let me tell you how we did it in the last Italian place I worked in Los Angeles more than 10 years ago.

The Bolognese was kept hot in the steamtable. When an order came in we fisrst sauted a very small amount of a mixture consisting of half shopped shallots and half shopped onions in a bit of olive oil and a small knob of unsalted butter until done ,then deglaced with a bout a half ounce of white wine and maybe 3 oz of chicken- broth.Then we added the hot pasta and when the pasta was fully coated with the liquid we added the bolognese and mixed it well. Now we placed the well coated pasta with tongs into a serving bowl while trying to keep most of the sauce in the pan,and then poured the rest of the sauce over the pasta and topped with chopped Italian Parsley for service

It was  a lot of work,but doing it this way seemed to refresh the sauce and we did sell a lot .At times ,when the waiter sensed a big tip the waiter did the plating  table side and put on a good show for the customers.

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Every smoker quits smoking sooner or later!

Only the smart ones are doing it while they are still alive.

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post #33 of 83

CLASSIC, berndy.      Very nice example. 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #34 of 83

Posted by berndy View Post

Let me tell you how we did it in the last Italian place I worked in Los Angeles more than 10 years ago...

What place was that?

 

BDL

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post #35 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post
  Speaking of Italian, Siduri is always cogent and interesting, but Siduri with apoplexy is even more entertaining.  It's nice to be on; the same side with her.

 

BDL

I'm rolling on the floor with this one.  First persnickety, then siduri with apoplexy - you got me down perfectly guys.  Hope you saw the video - bill bailey is hilarious and the otehr guy is worse than me with apoplexy

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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post #36 of 83
Thread Starter 

iceman,

heston's 'perfect spaghetti bolognese' looks more like a bad toupee or something left out to dry too long, or if you look close enough to the front end, roadkill....sorry but who in gods name named it perfect?  heston himself? oh brother......and it's not even spaghetti!!  i'd pay money to hear blumenthal splain' that plate to kk!

joey

omg, i still have tears running down my cheeks siduri...funny, funny funny......ah geez, a tower of soup! thanks


Edited by durangojo - 6/18/12 at 5:10pm

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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post #37 of 83

Grazie Dío we're not talking pasta e fagioli.

Gebbe Got uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichen und schönen Tod. Joseph Roth.
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Gebbe Got uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichen und schönen Tod. Joseph Roth.
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post #38 of 83

The place was called "CHIANTI" ,on Melrose just a few bocks East of Farmer's Market. Actually this was waaaaaay back in the mid-seventies.

Every smoker quits smoking sooner or later!

Only the smart ones are doing it while they are still alive.

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Every smoker quits smoking sooner or later!

Only the smart ones are doing it while they are still alive.

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post #39 of 83

LOL. durangojo. I do appreciate your commentary (really)

 

Tommy DeVito: You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little [fouled] up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to [freakin'] amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny? 

Henry Hill: Just... you know, how you tell the story, what? 

Tommy DeVito: No, no, I don't know, you said it. How do I know? You said I'm funny. How the [flip] am I funny, what the [fun] is so funny about me? Tell me, tell me what's funny! 

 

I picked a pic that I thought looked really nice, to me. As you should know by now, one of my main motivators is people spending money eating my food. Now from my experience, whatever that may be worth, I know that people eat with their eyes first. These same people may not have the first clue whatsoever about anything "authentic", or how it should look. They do know "pretty".  I know this too, from that "experience" that I may have. I know that whatever I put on the plate is gonna taste fantastic however it looks. It's just a much better thing to do serving stuff that looks good to the "average consumer's" eye.    I could be wrong. YMMV. 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #40 of 83

Posted by durangojo View Post

heston's 'perfect spaghetti bolognese' looks more like a bad toupee or something left out to dry too long, or if you look close enough to the front end, roadkill....sorry but who in gods name named it perfect?

 

Donald Trump AND his barber.

 

BDL

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http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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post #41 of 83

LOL.          Feel the love. 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #42 of 83
Thread Starter 

ice, 

it's wasn't a personal affront..i know it's just a picture you picked...but seriously, you can't possibly think that plate that looks pretty?  really?...how the hell would you even start to eat that ' thing'?  what if you're at at table of six or eight with limited elbow room?...do you slice it? is there sauce on the side? doesn't really matter...i think it's horrid, but 'to each their own said the farmer as he kissed his cow'... personally seems to me that since most people eat with their eyes first, there would be alot of rolling ones, as they wouldn't understand it...i don't think i would even...and how  the hell would the rich even eat that? from my experience, they hate to really have to work at their food as they practically want their food cut up for them in order to fit in their perfect little mouths..umm,sorry my slip is showing....in the end it just kinda pisses me off that this 'nouvelle' cuisine which costs alot also makes it soo exclusive.....and it's not that good....money and  taste are two different things for sure, and money does not buy taste...oh my, how we've digressed..

joey


Edited by durangojo - 6/18/12 at 6:48pm

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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post #43 of 83

lentil+bolognese+1.jpg

 

This is a picture I found on the net that comes close to what your trying to accomplish. I agree with you trying to show case your sauce, I'm just worried the customer will not blend the pasta and sauce together properly to do justice to the dish......................

post #44 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChefBillyB View Post

lentil+bolognese+1.jpg

 

This is a picture I found on the net that comes close to what your trying to accomplish. I agree with you trying to show case your sauce, I'm just worried the customer will not blend the pasta and sauce together properly to do justice to the dish......................

 

 

 

   Hi ChefBilly,

 

  If his intentions are to showcase the sauce, as you've displayed, and then mix the two together.  Perhaps the server can present the dish, then ask the customer if they would like to have their pasta tossed, or if they wish to properly blend the two together.  Personally, I would want the pasta finished with the sauce.  Perhaps a compromise would be to display the pasta in a pan (tableside), add the sauce and blend in the hot pan.  But I don't know...I just say finish it in back and bring it out completed.  Cooked properly the customer should be rolling their eyes in the back of their head because it's so good.

post #45 of 83
Thread Starter 
cool.gif

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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post #46 of 83

Jesus, that looks like Manwich sauce with that nasty, cheap pre-shredded fake parm from Sysco. *gag*  Booooooo!

post #47 of 83

(no offense, just playing around.)

post #48 of 83

I used to cook the pasta, drain it then toss it in a saute pan in a little clarrified butter. In doing this I cooked off or evaporated all the water that was left. ThenI added sauce

There used to be a test and it still stands , Put Pasta on plate, top with sauce . now tilt plate if water comes off plate, its a no no, no water allowed

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #49 of 83

 Am I really the only one here that tosses my pasta with a bit of pasta cooking water and sauce and lets it rest before saucing and serving? That naked pasta from Chef Blumenthal is just so wrong on so many levels. Pasta should always be about the pasta itself (IMO) but I still don't want a bunch of dry sticky noodles under my sauce.

 

Dave


Edited by DuckFat - 6/19/12 at 7:36pm
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I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
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post #50 of 83

Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckFat View Post

 Am I really the only one here that tosses my pasta with a bit of pasta cooking water and sauce and lets it rest before saucing and serving?

Dave

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Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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post #51 of 83

Posted by chefedb View Post


I used to cook the pasta, drain it then toss it in a saute pan in a little clarrified butter. In doing this I cooked off or evaporated all the water that was left. ThenI added sauce

There used to be a test and it still stands , Put Pasta on plate, top with sauce . now tilt plate if water comes off plate, its a no no, no water allowed

 

Alas Ed, this is no longer the modern way of cooking pasta -- at least not in "fine dining."  Modern restaurants with Italian accents finish cooking the pasta in the sauce; and more than likely the sauce has at least some of the pasta water in it.  Also, oiling or buttering pasta forms a barrier which prevents the sauce from marrying the pasta. 

 

As far as I know -- and by no means do I know everything or even that much about Italian cooking -- this method of cooking pasta by finishing it in the sauce is pretty much universal throughout Italy.  I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but -- as I understand it -- they are rare.  The only exceptions I can think of aren't so much exceptions but variations where the heat of the freshly cooked pasta is used to cook the sauce as in a carbonara or a ("real") Alfredo.  Variants in that they don't depend on well-oiled, otherwise perfectly dry pasta, but make use of the pasta water clinging to the noodles to help control the density of the sauce, and anticipate the pasta / sauce union.   

 

Pasta made this way is usually not served with a lot of loose sauce.  If served on a plate and the plate tilted, not only will no water drip, but neither will much, if any, sauce.  

 

I think the Italian / "fine dining" viewpoint is of a pasta flavored with sauce; not pasta with sauce, nor sauce on pasta. 

 

And finally, all of this isn't to say that my way is the only way or the only good way.   It's only a discussion of styles and their evolution.

 

BDL

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post #52 of 83
Thread Starter 

please take these photos with a grain of salt(maybe even the whole box). they were the first platings and i was just playing around with the looks....they actually were staff meals....i can see what is not quite right with the liquid in the bowl, but it was the liquid part of the bolognese. i think i mentioned this before but i i ended up heating the fettuccine in a pan with wine and parsley, then added enough bolognese to coat it well without drowning, bowled it and then topped again with the sauce...so when you look at these, please be gentle.....we chefs are very sensitive!.......i gotta say...eveyone certainly has strong opinions about how they think pasta should be eaten....it's been very interesting and very entertaining.....thanks all!.......joey

Photo081.jpgPhoto080.jpgPhoto082.jpeg

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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post #53 of 83

LOL Joey. It's AG. By-the-way ... I took no affront from any of your posts. I considered them friendly conversation. I kinda like your pic in the middle, the pic of the orange plate. I like BillyB's pic too. I would like a little more sauce though. For myself I have no love affair with celebrating the pasta so much. I like more sauce. Do you really serve things with those little garnishes on the plate rim? 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #54 of 83

BDL If you notice I said I USED to.  I feel sauce should be mixed in and tossed with pasta, However if you go to an old fashioned Italian Householsd and sit down for lets say Penne with  meatballs , , and sausage the sauce is presented on top. At least all households I have been to. Also when plate is tilted water wont run off, thats understood. There ae also 2 schools of thought or more of the cooking water for pasta , some add salt some do not, some add oil some do not stating the oil stops the sauce from sticking to the pasta. I have heard 100s of people tell of THEIR way or Mama's way of cooking pasta and am sure you have to.  Everyones MAMA "S is the best.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #55 of 83

Joey, gently said, I don't see the appeal.  At first my eye is running around the rim trying to play football with the garnish.  All the players should be in the field, are the raw veggies supposed to be the audience?  Are they guarding the pasta?  If it were Gordon he'd flick a tomato.  I was distracted but now that I'm over the garnish I look into the plate and see the liquid swimming down there which had you tossed it in the pasta would've lovingly penetrated and sauced your noodle.  And I know your noodles are now dressed but not with the sauce and making me dress my own noodles cools them down :( and I don't need the upper body exercise anyway.  I think you know better.  The 2nd plate is delightfully better though, no garnish to distract and makes you want to reach out and grab a slice of cheese.

 

Never understood garnish.  If I have to pick it up and place it elsewhere it's done nothing for the dish.  Do you eat garnish?

 

Regarding pasta water in the sauce - I never do it with bolognese but I do it with other pasta dishes like clam sauce or with a simple butter sauce.  I admit that when I'm being naughty I butter my cappellini noodles thoroughly before tossing my bolognese in - wrong noodle, too much butter but it's a guilty pleasure.

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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post #56 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by durangojo View Post

please take these photos with a grain of salt(maybe even the whole box). they were the first platings and i was just playing around with the looks....they actually were staff meals....i can see what is not quite right with the liquid in the bowl, but it was the liquid part of the bolognese. i think i mentioned this before but i i ended up heating the fettuccine in a pan with wine and parsley, then added enough bolognese to coat it well without drowning, bowled it and then topped again with the sauce...so when you look at these, please be gentle.....we chefs are very sensitive!.......i gotta say...eveyone certainly has strong opinions about how they think pasta should be eaten....it's been very interesting and very entertaining.....thanks all!.......joey

 

 

Hey Joey, 

 

I had never seen the "liquid part of the bolognese" before! ;)

 

In my experience bolognese should be a one-texture sauce, not a sauce having a liquid part and a solid part. The best word I have to describe the one-texture would be velvety: it should be smooth on your palate. The best reason I can think of for liquid in your sauce is that you have not simmered the sauce enough to get rid of all the tomato water and/or other veggie water.

 

- How long did you simmer the sauce for? I simmer bolognese for about 2 or 3 hours and usually my issue is that it tends to dry out, so I constantly add a bit of milk to keep the texture where I want it to be.

- I typically use a 5 or 6 Qt Saute pan which provides a lot of surface for evaporation, and allow me to finish cooking the pasta in the sauce with a bit of pasta water - the pasta water helps thicken the sauce a bit and making it stick to the pasta. That way once I serve the pasta it's already "dressed" uniformly with the sauce, which makes it easier to eat than white pasta topped with sauce. 

 

As for the presentation, I have to agree with Koukouvagia: raw veggies and/or raw herbs on the rim don't support pasta with bolognese ragu IMO. Thin slices of cheese on top are better, although personally I prefer simply grated parm. Honestly I don't think you need any garnish with that dish. 

 

What did the staff say? Did the sauce taste good? 

post #57 of 83
Thread Starter 

yes i knew when i posted the photos the scrutiny could be unbearable, but i'm a brave soul so i've been told. i know the photos aren't very good...they were first plates out of the gate, and actually were staff meals...the garnishes were just playing around......i prefer clean rims myself, but sometimes you just gotta play with your food! soo everyone just know that the 'actual' plates did not look like that...i was just getting a bit annoyed about the criminality of 'nekkid' or underdressed pasta.....i think there must, no, i know there must be a balance in there!  personally i like not too much sauce and to mix my own, thank you very much, but i guess that's what makes a horse race! thanks for all the comments though..besides being very funny they are very funny, a bit anal but constructive, and kinda just shows that no one really agrees on any one total way.  some agree on some parts but no two cooks do it the exact same way without changing something.  i asked for opinions and i got them!....truly i thank you all

kk...just curious, what do you have to say about chef blumenthal's plate, or can't you say it here?

joey


Edited by durangojo - 6/19/12 at 2:18pm

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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post #58 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post

 

What did the staff say?

 

 

If there's one absolute and universal constant in this field it's that staff will pi** and moan no matter what you feed them right after they hork it all down.

 

Dave

I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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post #59 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by durangojo View Post

they are very funny, a bit anal

I would have preferred pernickety

 

But I have no idea whether or not this is considered proper etiquette to criticize the critic you made of my critic of your dish. lol.gif

post #60 of 83
Thread Starter 

french fries,

 since we were posting at the same time i certainly wasn't singling you out..i wasn't singling anyone out in particular...just a funny observation that's all. as to what did the staff say?...they said "thank you". i find that staff isn't usually bothered about my garnishes(at least my staff)...if it bothers them, which it never seems to, they just don't eat it....as to how it tasted...it tasted righteous!....as to using the liquid from the bolognese, i will explain another time...my cocktail is waiting....somethings just don't wait...

joey


Edited by durangojo - 6/19/12 at 3:39pm

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

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