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Rights to recipes - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceMan View Post

...  I'll ask my question again, "How many people here really think they have true "proprietary recipes"?"....

I'm not allowed to tell you, and if I did...

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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post #32 of 50

A fast-ball is a fast-ball. Supposedly all MLB pitchers can throw it. The success of each of those pitchers throwing it is a much different question. I've cooked for a long time, in places with famous and ordinary people. Nobody good ever worried about the "proprietary-ness" of their recipes. I don't think any little part has been left out of the French Laundry cookbook. You know why? Because Keller doesn't care. I don't think he's at all concerned that you, me or anyone else here will take away any customers. I think he's more worried that you'd screw up the recipe. Almost every one of the recipes I use came from somewhere. Not any of them is free of my own personal tweaks. Do you want any? I'll happily give any to you. You don't even have to credit me for it. 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #33 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceMan View Post

.   I'll ask my question again, "How many people here really think they have true "proprietary recipes"?". 

I can't begin to answer your question because I am not going to ask each individual member if they think they have any true "proprietary recipes" or not. So therefore a guess at "how many people" would be shear folly on my part.peace.gif

Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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post #34 of 50

LOL. CRACK ME UP!!!

 

 

It's a simple question. "Yes" or "No". No need to consult with attorneys or council. "Do YOU personaly, not including any place of employment, think that you have a truly proprietary recipe, of your very own?". Notice please that the question is not asking for the recipe. I did say before that I am curious what the dish itself may be. But the question does not at all ask for the recipe itself. Any chance at all that anyone wants to answer without tap dancing all over the place? I'm curious. LOL. 

 

I don't have any recipes that I would not give to anyone else. I'm funny like that.

 

 

 

Reading is Fundamental. 


Edited by IceMan - 6/19/12 at 10:55pm

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply
post #35 of 50

That's a joke, son! You missed it! Flew right by ya! Pay attention to me boy - I'm not just talkin' to hear my head roar! Boys as sharp as a bowling ball. Here's my answer boy...NO...was that plain enuff for ya, son!

Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckFat View Post

 

 

Do you know the recipe for Coke or KFC's secret? It's a long list of companies that have proprietary recipes and SOP manuals for trademark dish's and their not all giant corporations. There are M&P's that guard those recipes like the family jewels.  Any one can make fried chicken. Not every one can do it exactly the same. I think there are those who fail to understand the difference between a working Chef, An executive Chef and a corporate Chef not only in regards to duties but salary.

 

 

Dave

 

It's controlled differently.  They have multiple vendors so nobody has a clue as to what the other is doing and contractual agreements with each of them.  Only a few people have access to the formula and even then it's unlikely that these people will leak the formula because their bonuses are just so big.

post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuan View Post

It's controlled differently.  They have multiple vendors so nobody has a clue as to what the other is doing and contractual agreements with each of them.  Only a few people have access to the formula and even then it's unlikely that these people will leak the formula because their bonuses are just so big.

 

 

That would be the point! Trade secrets are closely guarded and neither you or I have any idea if in this case the Chef was the only one privy to the recipes in question. Clearly if every cook knew the technique and recipe the owner wouldn't need to pay as he could just have a line cook write them.  Both KFC and Coke started with recipes that were protected and that secured an income for the owners. The Op is trying to secure a recipe and assure (I assume) that the Chef won't sell or give away the same recipe to some one across the street. Neither KFC or Coke started as franchise. No matter how you slice it if you want to develop a "secret" or proprietary recipe you have to pay those you trust with the secret to keep it and that's usually combined with an explicit contract.

No contract no secret.

 

 

Dave

I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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post #38 of 50

I'm not sure what you mean by a "proprietary" recipe.

 

I know that many of my recipes, including some of those posted here on CT are protected or at least protectable by current IP law.  Not in the sense that no one else is allowed to use or even publish their ingredient lists, nor is anyone prevent from cooking the recipes; but the writing describing the recipes and their techniques IS subject to protection.  So, in that sense, many of my recipes are "proprietary."

 

"Trade secrets" are another matter; and while they're not subject to copyright or similar protection many recipes comprising no more than a proportional ingredient list and a bare description of how to combine and prepare them -- even those recipes used by small independent restaurants -- can be considered "secret" and therefore "proprietary." The analysis of whether any given recipe is a secret depends on the facts of that situation.  "Secret" recipes are often specifically protected by specific clauses in employment, partnership, and sub-contractor contracts.   

 

At the end of the day, after realizing that an ex-employee is using top-secret tangerine peel in the fried-chicken brine, the question arises of what are you going to do about it.

 

And finally, if anyone wants to know what I mean by terms like "slavery" or "involuntary servitude," ask.  Even if you're an attorney, don't put words in my mouth. Any attorney should know that "specific performance" does not apply to employment or other service contracts.  It's a remedy (which means you only get it after you win) which is confined to property of a unique nature -- things like real estate and art works, for example.  Contract remedies are almost always confined to money damages; most especially for employment and other service contracts.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 6/19/12 at 5:35pm
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http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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post #39 of 50
BDL - Not putting words in your mouth - that's why I said "I think." And for what it's worth I specifically said that specific performance doesn't apply to employment or service contracts. Specific. That last one was just because I like threes.
post #40 of 50

Okay, okay, okay.

 

BDL

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http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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post #41 of 50

three can keep a secret, if two are dead

from ...

My kitchen in the middle of the desert

A Hui Hou (until we met), ALOHA!

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from ...

My kitchen in the middle of the desert

A Hui Hou (until we met), ALOHA!

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post #42 of 50
Thread Starter 

You write software, you finally finish a long project  while on the clock.  How the @#$% are you selling the code back to me?  We paid you to develop the software.

No different than developing a recipe. 

 

You work for the New York Times.  You're a journalist who works for months on salary to come up with an amazing whistle blowing story.  We come to the date of publication and then you say, buy the story from me in order to (keep) using the story?  all the while you've been on salary? 

 

 

You were Working for me while you were writing it.  How the 'heck' would you own the rights to the product?    They are MY recipies. I need them for Continuity.  Please get off the red herring of whether the recipes can be reverse engineered.  I dont' want the new chef to do that - he shouldn't have to waste time doing so.

 

It won't be exact and I want to reproduce the recipe exactly, as it's been served for the past year.  I don't want 'close'.. why should I have to settle?  Trying to get all 'legal' was it in the contract blah blah blah.. really?  When earlier the recipes were given freely?  Now somebody is getting married and moving cross country and now they cost me 6.4k? 

post #43 of 50

We understand how frustrated you feel and sympathize.  If you're not satisfied with what you've read here you might consider calling your County Bar Association to see if you can't get a brief, free consultation with someone who has more expertise in Intellectual Property law.  Unfortunately, I can't hold out much hope for relief.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 6/23/12 at 12:11pm
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http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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What were we talking about?
 
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post #44 of 50

Hind-sight is always 20/20.............

 

If you give your Chef carte blanche to develop recipies  for your establishment,you need to put some kind of rules in place before he starts.  But I'm confused, how do you establish a cost price for a dish that you don't have a costing for?  How do you establish a sales price if you don't have a cost price?

 

Cut your losses now.  Start all over again and do it right this time.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #45 of 50

bfarr, what kind of restaurant?  Next, do you have other cooks, a sous chef?  What kind of items on the menu?  It's not rocket science.

post #46 of 50

LOL.

 

"Our profession aint'e rocket surgery ... we work in kitchens."

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply
post #47 of 50

Brfarr - your frustration is certainly understandable as its clear this guy is trying to cash in on his prior failure to do something that you expected of him.  I won't speak for anyone else, but the reason my response focused on the "legal blah blah blah" is becuase short of hiring a couple of guys in black leather jackets with crow bars, the law is the way you force someone to do something they otherwise don't want to do, whether that is to pay you for your trouble, or to sit down and write these recipes. 

 

I frankly don't know what else you were looking for, if not a bit of insight as to some potential solutions to your problem.  Now, that being said - which local eatery is yours?  I'd love to stop in and try it!

post #48 of 50

What I'm understanding from the OP is that it's not about the recipes themselves, it's about the continuity and consistency of providing the same product his customers have come to expect.

 

Here's my answer to you, brfarr:  The food you serve in your restaurant is going to change.  Not necessarily worse, or better; just different.

You have every right to feel pissed off about being extorted for 6K, and likely by a guy who you treated well and liked.  But, you gotta move past all that.  Because no matter what you do, when you hire a new chef, HE will come in and make changes!  Unless, that is, you plan on hiring a "cook".  But any chef worth anything will want to put his mark on the food - HIS food now, not the last guys'.  It's YOUR restaurant, YOUR menu and YOUR style of food.  But those are the blueprints and the framework the new chef will work within.  I'm sorry if that's upsetting, but it's a fact of this industry, as many others.  Let's call it something positive - Progress.  It's a good thing.  Yes, some people will like the old mayonnaise and dressings better, but many will like the new ones.  And you always have control to give constructive feedback to the new chef when you would like something changed.  Just don't be telling him that you want everything to be as close as possible to the way that it was.

So, now that you've been informed, you can inform your customers that there's a new chef coming.  With that information, the customers will have the expectation of things being prepared differently.  You can take the opportunity to tweak the menu, or not.

But most of all, don't worry - there's more than one guy out there who can make great food for you.

Remember, you're not a packaged product - and if you were, the new packaging would say "new and improved formula".

post #49 of 50
There has been some great conversation here. From the initial post two things jumped out at me, which haven't been discussed very much( until the last few posts anyway). I'm sure that you don't want to answer these questions, nor do they provide an answer to your question. I just think that these are important points that your should at least answer for yourself and consider moving forward.

1) Why isn't there one single other person on your staff who can reproduce the items on the menu? Do you shut the doors when the chef is on vacation? How do you maintain consistency on a daily basis if you don't have people who can reproduce without the chef being present?

2) If you are so set in keeping everything exactly the same, you do not need a chef. IMO it would be insulting(insult is too strong of a word, I'm not gonna open a thesaurus now.) Lets say it would be improper to hire a chef without giving any kind of creative license. You are looking for a cook who can manage the schedule and place a food order.

Just my two cents here...
I think it's wrong that your current chef is attempting to extort money from you. I have heard of chefs being paid consulting fees for creating menus, but not being paid extra for their recipes after separating from the business. Also I've always looked at the menu as a dynamic piece of paperwork, constantly evolving. As I grow and learn myself, I want my menus to evolve with me.
A person who never made a mistake, never tried anything new.  - Al E
Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days.  - Ben Franklin
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A person who never made a mistake, never tried anything new.  - Al E
Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days.  - Ben Franklin
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post #50 of 50

Rights to recipes????  coca cola does not even have rights thats why its kept  secret.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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