Sharpening my Gyuto.

Hi Biktor...

If you spend some more time reading this  forum, I'm sure that you're going to find the answers to most of your questions, here's a link of a not so old post where you can start to get an idea on what you're looking for.

Take a look and keep searching 

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/70901/getting-started-with-waterstones

Regards.

Luis

There are some generic water stone recommendations suitable for all Japanese made knives of decent quality or better.  The Bester 1200 is an excellent medium/coarse for raising a burr, and either the Suehiro Rika or Takenoko/Arashiyama are really good choices for edge refinement and polish.  At some point -- usually after a year -- you'll want to add a coarse stone for thinning, other profiling and repair.  I like the Beston 500.

The Suehiro Rika is a little easier to use than the Takenoko, but doesn't polish as well.  Whether or not you need or want Takenoko level polish is an open question.  So is whether you want to polish still finer. 

Chef Knives to Go sells all of four stones, and I believe they still sell the Beston/Bester/Suehiro combination as a discounted kit.  It's not exactly an ultimate kit, but it's fairly priced and good enough to serve you well for years. There are alternatives and trade-offs.  Your best choices depend on what you want to do, and what you're going to do it on. 

I think we're going to end up going through all of the basics before you understand enough to really get started.  Let's begin with a few questions: 

• Which "gyuto" are we talking about?
• Do you plan on adding other high quality knives, such as a suji and petty?
• How much are you willing to spend on a sharpening kit?
• How much time are you willing to invest learning to sharpen?

BDL

In what ways do you think "belly" will help? 

In terms of overall manufacturing quality and edge taking, the Shun is sort of halfway between the Fujiwara FKM and the Konosuke HD.  There are a couple of things I really dislike about the Shun -- including way too much rocker, too much belly (in the limited, technical sense), too-high tip, lack of feedback, etc. -- any or all of which may or may not apply to you.  If you do like Shun type knives, and want an 8", 8" Premier is a very good value at its sale price.  Otherwise, you pay a very stiff premium for the (tsuchime) finish, and the Premier line is vastly overpriced for VG-10 san-mai.  As a rule, a 10" knife is a better choice than an 8" as long as you're willing to master the (very easy) skills necessary to control the extra length.

The Fujiwara is a decent but unspectacular knife at a very good price.  In other words, entry level. 

I really like the Kono, probably wrote some of the stuff which influenced your choice, but can't say if it's a particularly good choice for you or not.  Also, if you're interested in a high-end laser and aren't wedded to the idea of semi-stainless, there are a number of other brands as good as Konosuke.

$50 is on the very low side for even a good combi-stone.  "Adequate" as to sharpening, especially if you know what you're doing.  But the stone will have issues in terms of how fast it cuts, how fast it wears, how much flattening it requires, how easily it crumbles on the sides and edges, etc., and may not satisfy you for long. Beginners especially do themselves a large disservice by choosing cheap, hard to use tools, and are better off spending a little more to avoid their disadvantages.

Whether or not you're going to want a honing rod (aka "steel") as well as a set of stones depends on which knife you ultimately choose, as well on which knives you already have and/or plan to buy in the future.  Really good rods are relatively inexpensive, the 12" Idahone fine ceramic runs less than $40.  

If you take good advice and focus on learning, it will take 6 - 15 edges (three to twelve hours on the stones) before you begin to develop the basic skills of angle holding, drawing a burr, and deburring to the point where you know what you're doing and can consistently sharpen a reasonably good edge.  I've been sharpening for more than forty five years and am still learning and improving.

As long as you don't try and learn to sharpen with a coarse grit stone (say lower than 800# JIS) it's unlikely you'll do anything to hurt your knife.  A lot of people like to learn to sharpen on inexpensive knives; and while it isn't a bad idea, I don't think it's that big a deal. 

If you do go with an entry-level knife like the Fujiwara or a mid-priced option like the Shun, depending on which other knives you frequently use, you may want to consider some sort of gag -- like a Minosharp3 or a Chef's Choice Electric -- instead of stones.  You'll get good if unspectacular results right off the bat for around $80.  I'm not trying to handicap any particular sharpening solution as "best for you," just letting you know that there are options. 

Lots to think about,

BDL

The Konosuke HD may not be the right knife for a newbie, and I own a 240 gyuto and a 180 petty.  They're so extremely thin and light a lot of people don't like them. A good entry level gyuto will be a pleasure to use for a lifetime.  Mine was a Carbonext from JCK:  http://japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKICarboNextSeries.html

The HD's are terrific, but I'd be perfectly happy with the Carbonext, which may well be lighter than the Shun Premier.  IIRC shipping worldwide is $7 and if you let them know in an email you want a saya it's pretty cheap (approx $17). It has a bit more belly than some gyuto's and is the exact "middle ground" Biktor is looking for.  FWIW, I briefly owned a Shun Premier and while it's a very good knife, IMHO it's over priced.

Two-sided stones are a great bargain and perfectly suitable for a home cook.  Don't know shipping, but check these out:

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/category-s/152.htm

For good info on sharpening check out videos from Jon Broida.  http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/media

Becoming an adequate -and I mean simply average- sharpener isn't that difficult, and you'll have a sharper and stronger edge than most pro's.  

The 8" Shun Premier is currently priced very attractively -- but only if you want an 8" Shun Premiere.  I urge you not to think of $109 as being a great deal only because the knife is "regularly" $225.  A knife you won't like is a LOUSY PURCHASE at any price.

An 8" Shun Premier and 240mm Konosuke HD don't have much in common.  It's easy to predict that you'll fine one considerably more suitable for your purposes than the other,  but not at all easy to predict which you'd like best without knowing considerably more about you.

Also, while I heartily recommend CKtG (Mark rocks!), you should be aware that the $109 price is available pretty much everywhere Shuns are sold; including your local Williams Sonoma and Sur La Table.  

Two sided stones may be "perfectly suitable," but do have issues, aren't as good as two separate stones, and don't save the buyer anything in the long run. 

Good luck,

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

The 8" Shun Premier is currently priced very attractively -- but only if you want an 8" Shun Premiere.  I urge you not to think of $109 as being a great deal only because the knife is "regularly" $225.  A knife you won't like is a LOUSY PURCHASE at any price.

 

An 8" Shun Premier and 240mm Konosuke HD don't have much in common.  It's easy to predict that you'll fine one considerably more suitable for your purposes than the other,  but not at all easy to predict which you'd like best without knowing considerably more about you.

 

Also, while I heartily recommend CKtG (Mark rocks!), you should be aware that the $109 price is available pretty much everywhere Shuns are sold; including your local Williams Sonoma and Sur La Table.  

 

Two sided stones may be "perfectly suitable," but do have issues, aren't as good as two separate stones, and don't save the buyer anything in the long run. 

 

Good luck,

BDL

What are the issues with two sided stones, especially for home cooks who don't sharpen that often?  They appear to be a bargain, to me at least.

I agree CKtG is terrific, having purchased from them.  Excellent customer services, great prices and selection, too.  

The Shun Premier are not the knives I owned.  Forgot the name -Elite?- but they were a higher-end line that's now discontinued.

Don't get me wrong. I don't HATE combi-stones, but do think there are enough negatives that separates are a better choice for most people under most circumstances.  Here's a partial list of the reasons: 

• Both sides need frequent flattening, you'll probably have to flatten every couple of edges at minimum.  Lots of flattening = Big PITA;
• The sides don't wear evenly, which means you'll wear one side out when the other is still usable;

• The stones are different hardness/density etc., and don't abrade at the same rate -- which means the corners don't chamfer easily and are prone to crumbling;

• Combi stones are two, thin, single stones glued together.  Sometimes they separate;
• Because the combi-stone component stones wear at the same rate as their thicker, single-stone equivalents, you go through combi-stones quickly and they don't represent any actual cost saving; and
• Combi-stones have two surfaces, but most good sharpening kits should have three or four. 

BDL

The King 800/6000 is an okay stone.  I don't want to make you feel worse by nit-picking its many but relatively minor faults.  It's certainly good enough to learn on and keep your knife sharp for a couple of years.

Don't forget you're going to need some method for flattening; and you must flatten your new stone and chamfer the corners and edges before using it for the first time.  Since you're on a budget, I suggest 3M Drywall Screen, rather than buying a flattening stone from a knife shop.  It will put you on the hook for a great deal less than $20.  Note, drywall screen and sandpaper are not the same thing; and if I were recommending sandpaper I would have said so. 

You decided on the 8" Shun?

BDL