Home Cook Chef Knife Guidance

If you search around here, knifeforums.com, and foodieforums.com, you should be able to find out which brands and models are considered to be in the laser category. Most people will probably recommend that you get the Mac, and they are good knives. The CarboNext and Kikuichi TKC may be worth considering if you want a thin knife that isn't really a "laser". CarboNexts, to my understanding, are not shipped sharp, so you would have to put in a lot of effort getting the first edge on it.

 

The Mac logos are not engraved into the metal, so you should be able to polish it off of the knife if you don't like it, and still have a nice knife.

And since you were checking outf JKI... the Gesshin Uraku knives (which are Yoshihiro) are thin but not lasers. Thicker a tad than CarboNext I think (and way prettier if you like wa- hanndles). They're kinda baby bear knives. Compromises between tough and strong, very good but not top in edge taking and edge holding, not chippy.... very well priced. They come sharpened with a major right hand bias. The edge is usable ootb. Slightly harder to sharpen than the CN, but most things are. (It jist so happens they were the first two k ives I sharpened myself. The Yoshihiro/GU seemed difficult at first, but with a tiny bit of practice I realized it's not. Harder as a beginner of you're moving the bevel closer to 50:50. Or lefty. Really nice profile to my tastes. If looking for a non-laser but still thinnish knife, and a wa handle, that's a short-lister.

if you have a chance to see/hold the knives in person, its pretty easy to gauge thickness... but there's more to it than just geometry.  You also want to pay attention to the kind of steel and the heat treatment it went through.  All of these together will give you a much better idea of how a knife will perform.

its more that they are marketed towards people with little knowledge who want something pretty and flashy looking.  They arent bad knives, but for the same money, you can get much better performing knives (that may or may not look as pretty).  The heat treatment and geometry of knives like those will be geared towards people who dont understand knife skills, basic care, sharpening, etc.  The catch with better knives is that you will need to learn more about them- how to use them, care for them, sharpen them, etc.- to be able to get the most out of them (and to make them a more worthwhile purchase than the shuns or miyabis).  The more expensive of a knife you end up buying the more this will be true (excepting knives that are just expensive because they are targeting people with money who dont care about knives).

Hi...

 

You can get rid of the Mac logo very easily, and you can polish the blade to a mirror finish very easily too and have a great looking and an awesome perfomer in the kitchen. I have one, it was a knife that I got based on the many good reviews and comments from people in this forum and I don't regret the fact that I bought against my particular taste, at first it didn't look so appealing to me in the pics, but once that you get it and that you start cutting with it, you'll like it immediately.

 

It fits your budget, and since you were working with a forchner, you'll get used to the profile of the mac, the transition is not going to be a hard one. The difference in the performance is something that you'll notice very quickly and you're going to enjoy it big time.

 

You already got good advice from people with more experience than me, and there is a ton of info in this site and some others, so, keep reading and if you have very specific questions don't hesitate on calling directly to japanese knife imports or to chef knives to go, I'm sure that any of those guys will give you the specific answer to your questions.

 

Regards and good luck...And for sure you'll have to think about a set of stones or a good sharpening system, otherwise you'll be like the guy that has a nice sports car and can't drive it at more than 60 Miles per hour. A quality knife shines when sharpened properly. 

 

Luis

 

The last time I looked both the old knife forums and foodie forums were pretty much DOA and almost no one posting there. Foodie forums can go days with out a single follow up in a thread. The only other really active knife forum AFAIK is Kitchenknifeforums which seems to have the most traffic.

Almost all knives benefit from being sharpened even OOTB so the carbo next is no different than many others in that regard. Certainly a knife worth looking at as is the Sakai in either the laser or standard version from Bluewayjapan on eBay. If you look at the Sakai there is an option with an upgraded handle as well.

I still like the Kagayaki WA from Koki as well especially at the price point but the Sakai from Blueway is really hard to over look as a great value.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Sakai-White-Steel-Wa-Gyuto-Knife-240mm-Octagon-/230746926013?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b996abbd

 

 

Dave

 Posted by JBroida 

That's about as well-put as I've ever seen these two (related) analyses.  Bravo Jon.

 

As to the Kagayaki CarboNext and DuckFat's Assessments of Other Forums:

I was highly critical of the Kagayaki CN because of many user criticisms that it not only shipped very dull, but also shipped dull even if buyers ordered the extra-cost OEM sharpening.  While it's true that many Japanese made knives ship dull, it's a big problem if they ship to people who aren't good enough sharpeners to create their own, adequate edge.  Heck, the edges weren't even good enough to "click in" and improve.  I don't know if the knives still ship dull, or if the extra-cost sharpening still doesn't deliver.  Things might have changed.

 

The Knife Forum has been a very strange place for a long time -- even when it was still lively, it was strange.  It's been a ghost town for a long time, and I don't even bother checking in any more.  Fred's -- the knife forum part of Foodie Forums -- has also become very slow.  It's not as weird and taken over as the KF, but if you ask a question there you can't count on it being answered by sane people.  Quite a few people with their own, idiosyncratic hobby horses.  Their "who cares" nature is a big part of why the forum has become so quiet.  I agree with DuckFat about both forums.

 

I used to scan the KKF regularly, but almost never posted.  It wasn't a very good site for people looking for their first good knife.  There were a few good people there, but most members' answers tended to be pat, formulaic and given without thought to what might best benefit the user.  Instead it seemed as if the advice-givers wanted ratification of their own choices.  To my mind it's a good idea to remember that a knife which suits you to a "T" might be a poor choice for someone else.  As the KKF is about the only game left in town, maybe it would be a good idea to go back sooner rather than later, lurk, and adjust my opinion to the current circumstances.

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

 

Finally, you may be overstating the relationship between chipping and lasers.  Chipping is more typically the result of inappropriate hardening than pure thinness.  The issues with lasers is more about flex.  The 240 mm Konosuke wa HH (stainless) and 240mm Konosuke wa Shirogami #2 are each rated at 61RCH and priced at $183 (CKtG).  That's $12 less than the Sakai Yusuke sold by BluewayJapan on Ebay.  Bear in mind that these aren't the only knives in town; but also consider that the Konosuke HH might come closest to matching your "ideal" as any knife within your price range.  So far, good stainless at good hardness has been rare as hen's teeth in the world of wa.

 

BDL

Edited by boar_d_laze - 7/7/12 at 4:58pm

I think you should call Jon, personally.  My experience is that he knows and is enthusiastic to share tons of knowledge, and he'll guide your questions and your purchase toward what's best for you, even if it's not something he sells.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm shilling for him -- but I think he may help you decide whether you want a laser or help a lot in terms of describe the actual thinness of various knives, and he knows a bunch about the steels and treatments and grinds.

 

Now if you're thinking "laser after all" (and perhaps you should be) then things open up; and yeah, the Konosuke line is attractively priced these days.  My mention of the Gesshin Uraku was based on the request for "not" a laser, but not a particularly hefty knife, and a wa- handle, and a good price.  At least, that's basically what I was looking into when I bought one -- which is not to say I'm not falling into the trap of "self-validating".  Hopefully I'm not; and you may or may not like the profile, which was marginally flatter than I thought I wanted but it turns out I'm sort of in love.  Of course most of the gyutos sold by JKI go up in price kind of precipitously from there. It's mostly a "high end" shop.  But you won't getter better guidance from another retailer.

The "non-mainstream" knives on your list so far have very good F&F -- but they're not in the same league as a Henckels, Wusthof, Global or Shun.  That sort of quality comes from a mix of huge production runs and very high QC.  The specialty market knives we're talking about are more handmade; it shows with some of them, while some of the others are practically works of art.  In short, "it depends."

 

As long as you stay away from things as obviously stupid as splitting chickens, you should be fine.  The real knock against lasers -- such as it is -- is their flex.  Just like a panel saw cutting wood, they'll jam in the cut if you twist, bend or pronate the blade.  That's usually a consequence of combining hurry with an overly tight grip (also just like a saw).  Consequently a laser isn't a great choice for a newbie in a pro kitchen, where the pressure to go faster than his skills is intense.

 

Pro or home cook, learning to keep the knife square to the cut and cut in a straight line is one of the most basic and important knife skills.  A good, unstressed grip helps as does a sharp edge; but the real key is taking the time to feel and see what you're doing.  Home cooks aren't under the same pressure, and if the blade starts to stick they can relax their grip and square the knife into the cut. 

 

Hail to the home cook!

 

The Spyderco Sharpmaker is not a good option for most of the knives we're talking about.  It's too slow (not only tedious but makes for uneven bevels), the contact patch is too narrow (also makes for uneven bevels), it's too short for good angle holding, and it doesn't polish fine enough.  The plus side isn't large.  A Sharpmaker won't do as much harm as a carbide sharpener.  

 

It's a good idea to start by isolating and controlling the variables.  Let's figure out one end -- whether it's knife or sharpening kit -- before dealing with all of the possible permutations.

 

All good.  And there are more.  The suggestion to talk to Jon was good; his store, JKI has a completely different selection than CKtG.  Speaking of CKtG, talk to Mark too.  The best part of the job for each of them is helping customers find that "just right" knife.

 

Carbon doesn't require a lot of extra care, but what care it requires it requires RIGHT NOW!  If you're the sort of very organized person who takes care of his tools immediately, no problem.  Otherwise, stainless or semi-stainless will probably suit you better.  Carbon brings some bang for the buck, but it isn't the huge advantage it once was.  It's not the best choice for most people and while I'm not warning against carbon knives, do think about waiting until you've lived with a good knife for awhile and had a chance to develop a comfortable ritual. 

 

I can't believe I'm saying that, I was a carbon-only guy for so many years.  But times change.

 

No.

 

BDL

Edited by boar_d_laze - 7/8/12 at 5:48am

The Idahone "fine" (which CKtG calls the "1200") is an excellent hone.  You probably won't use it too much on your laser(s). Those you can strop true, but not on a belt.  You need a clean, and fairly hard surface, lots of things will work. By the way, "stropping" is an edge-trailing motion which can be done on a variety of surfaces.

 

When I true my laser Konosukes I most often just "touch up" on a high grit stone.  But sometimes I use either a charged balsa strop (0.25u diamond) or a clean manilla folder laid on my cutting board.  Truing is always just a couple of quick, light strokes, alternating sides on every stroke.  

 

Any edge which is out of true is a burr.  When you straighten the burr by pushing it form one side to the other, you're "chasing the burr" and weakening it at the crease.  Weaken it too much and you run the risk of the the burr breaking off in small pieces.     

 

The three stone set from CKtG is a great starter kit, good enough to last for years, and excellent for the price. 

 

What I call "the burr method" of sharpening is easy to understand with a little explanation.  Once you've got that, a trick or two, and a few tears, with some time and effort you'll outsmart the wily bench stone.   

 

An EdgePro is an excellent sharpening gag and will make learning to sharpen easier.  Don't begin to try to figure out Japanese water stone equivalent grits to EP's stated numbers.  For one thing JIS numbers are hardly certain, and for another EP is in its own world.  Just think in terms of coarse, medium/coarse, medium/fine and fine/polish -- and you'll be okay.  Better still buy CKtG's EP Chosera kit.

 

FWIW, I have a four stone, water stone, bench stone kit, which includes the Bester and Beston from CKtG's three-stone kit as well as a Chosera 3K (too expensive for what it is) and a Gesshin 8K (ridiculously expensive, but ridiculously worth it); and the EP Chosera.  I also have two other complete sharpening kits, but let's not go there.

 

An EP is a little easier to learn than freehanding and will net you better results faster.  Bench stones are more versatile. After everything's said and done, they cost about the same.

 

BDL

 

 

You do not need a hone for the knife you have chosen. I'd suggest skipping that 5 piece stone kit you linked to as well. The last thing you need to start with this knife is a 500 grit stone.  Either pick up a 1k/3-4K combination stone or a 1k and 3-5 stone. You just don't need more than two stones or a single combo stone to start. If you are going to go down the path of stropping don't buy those supplies from a knife vendor as they can have a 500% mark up on their diamond sprays. Balsa wood can be bought at any hobby shop. I've posted links here in the past to buy the diamond sprays direct so you can search for that here if you want the link.

As far as the CN edge goes I'd suggest any one interested in that knife search the forum at KKF. Many owners of that knife there and I think Ive only seen one edge complaint. Either way if this is a catalyst the Artifex should never be suggested. Having said that no one wants a lousy edge or wants to pay extra and not receive any value so I agree with BDL on skipping the extra sharpening service.

Congrats on the new knife and you should be happy as long as you don't have overly high expectations on FF. I've seen several complaints about the glue on the Konosuke but IMO they are a bit over blown and you can see that on knives at a much higher price point.

 

 

Dave

Jende is a good source, but don't rely too heavily on their grit comparisons, or anyone else's either.

 

Mixing stones of significantly different thickness isn't a great idea with an EP unless you compensate by readjusting using the collet stop and a level.

 

I question whether a Chosera 5K is fast enough to polish out the scratch left from an EP 400.  My guess is that it's too big a gap for the 5K to bridge, but it depends on a lot of things and I might be wrong about all of them.  If you went with a Chosera 1K instead of the EP 400, you'd be better off.  And while you don't use really coarse stones too often, you might want to go with a Chosera for the bottom level as well. 

 

Worth it to just buy CKtG's EP/Chosera kit?  It was for me, but I'm considerably more into sharpening and sharpening equipment as part of my knife craziness than you'll probably ever be.  Now that you've realized that good sharpening is an inseparable part of good knives sticker shock must be setting in. 

 

BDL