My wife would like some new knives

OK. I'm not the "expert" you're looking for, but I'll tell you this first. A $600 dull knife is only/still a dull knife, not so much better than any other knife. You need to learn how to sharpen. If nothing more, at least find someone or a service that you can use. If you can't do that, look into getting something better than what you are using. Here, I'll give you the two(2) regular recommended "sharpeners". These are not the absolute best way to go (proper stones), but much better than what you're doing. 

First off, maybe watch some of these:   Knife Sharpening Videos

Chef's Choice 3-stage Model 110 Electric Knife Sharpeners

Global 3-stage MinoSharp III Ceramic Water Stone Sharpeners

I could be wrong on the models, but I'm sure someone else will clear that up.

I would practice sharpening with the Henckels 8" chefs knife and since you know how to click in with your chisels you should pick up the feel on the knife pretty quickly. I would also lose the carbide pull through sharpener as it will wreck your knives pretty quick. For flattening your stones a lot of people here use drywall screen to do this. Good luck, Doug..............

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLEngman 
. I've got a nice system for my woodworking tools using a low-speed, waterstone wheel to grind down to a clean edge and to set the angle then a few quick strokes on each side of my waterstone and it's ready to go.

 

Sounds like you have a Tormek or similar.

I run some knives just like you are doing the chisels and it works. Set the Tormek to 20 degrees for German knives and you are going to be golden.

Hear hear. Those carbide pull through sharpeners are far too aggressive.

Jim

You've got about 93 issues.  Let's try and take a few and make some sense of them.

Jump Off:

The super cheap Henckels are very hard to sharpen under the best of circumstances.  Your carbide sharpener doesn't actually sharpen in the sense of creating or maintaining a fine edge.  Rather it rips a bunch of metal off the knife and leaves a very coarse edge which will dull quickly.  Your intuition that it's a good idea to up the knife quality and the sharpening quality is good.

Generic Sharpening:

If you can sharpen carpentry tools on bench stones you've got a pretty big head start compared to people who've never sharpened at all.  If you understand the process of raising a burr and deburring, and can accomplish them, you've got a huge head start.  

"Clicking in" is useful with kitchen knives, but nearly as much as it is with carpentry tools nor is it as easy because: (1) Kitchen knife bevels are more narrow than tool bevels; and (2) the natural tendency of the edge angle to become more obtuse if the bevel shoulders are not well defined (partly a function of their width), as the knife is repeatedly sharpened. 

But learning to hold an angle, thin, and all that other knife specific jazz isn't too much of a stretch.  You'll have to work at it, but not that hard. 

Both gags IceMan recommended work pretty well, but not as well as good bench stones. 

Let's hold of on comparing costs between gags and stones, and between the various stones, until you decide what kind of knives you're going to buy.

Flattening:

Yes to drywall screen.  Of all the inexpensive ways to flatten it's the fastest and best -- and I think it's your best current option.  However, it's not particularly fast or good and if you get serious you'll want better.  Unfortunately "better" enough to be "better" is something like a DMT XXC for $80ish.  

Santoku: 

If that's what your wife wants, get her one.   If you want a 10" chef's/gyuto, get one for yourself.  Will your wife fall in love with your knife?  Maybe.  

$100ish Santoku:

You have a range of options.  The minimum amount of money you can spend and still get a quality knife is probably a Forschner Fibrox or Rosewood.  Considering how you've described your wants and expectations the big downside with a Forschner or any knife made from a similar alloy is not sharpness so much as maintenance.  They need frequent (and competent) steeling. 

It sounds like your really asking about something the next step up and Japanese.  Fujiwara FKM, Kagayaki VG-10, MAC Superior, and Tojiro DP santokus are all within your price range and all at a fairly similar level of quality. 

Without getting too deeply into the specific plusses and minuses of VG-10 versus anything else, the Kagayaki is "mono-steel"
VG-10, while the Tojiro DP is a triple layer laminate (san-mai) with a VG-10 core (hagane) to do the cutting clad between softer outer layers (jigane). 

They're all pretty good, but none of them great. 

I hope this helps, and please feel free to ask more questions,

BDL

Hi man...

I gave knife to my mum not so long ago, and I remember that she liked how sharp are my knives but she finds the size (24 Cm) too intimidating. I got her a Mac professional 21 cms and she's very happy, occasionally my sister uses it too and the size fits them very well, for me is a short knife but still very good for home cooking where productivity or volume chopping is not neccesary.

That particular knife is a bit over your budget, but just like other respected members suggested you, the Tojiro DP can be a good choice, I have no experience with it but it was recommended to me when I was looking for knives under 100 bucks for professional use and abuse (My kitchen staff) take a look at that post and you'll get some good ideas by people with more experience than me. http://www.cheftalk.com/t/68590/best-under-100-bucks-professional-knife#post_373384

The santoku is a knife that you'll find too small for you, no doubt. I have one but it has very specific tasks to perform and it works great in my kitchen, but it's very far from being a good prep knife. But if your wife wants it... Resistance is futile  get her one and buy a big knife for yourself!

For the flattening, I was using sandpaper and it was ok, but every single time that I was flattening, I had to dump the whole piece and had to rinse it several times in the process bc it was getting clogged with the "mud", but it was somehow acceptable. On my last trip to the U.S. I went to a hardware store to buy the drywall screen that BDL suggested me, and it made a big difference. I've flattened my stones maybe 10 times and I'm still using the same piece,  the package came with something like 10 pieces (I don't remember) , so I have a stock of flattening stuff enough for a couple of years under $20 and it works great.

Best regards and good luck with your new knives.

Luis

1.  The best way to develop very consistent angle holding -- which is how you get even, well defined, bevel shoulders -- is to use "Magic Marker trick" until you've developed a good feel for the angle(s) you want to hold, and the eye to see errors without inking the blade.  It's not how I learned, but it sure helped when I re-learned.

I suggest getting some graph paper and drawing several large pictures of the angle you want to hold and place them around your sharpening station.  Ditto on the re-learning.

2.  Don't bother with a knife that isn't good enough to sharpen.  They're only heartbreak.  A Forschner Fibrox is barely okay, and pretty much the minimum of "worth it."  It only took my wife a couple of months before she preferred a 10" chef's to anything else.  Since "your" 10" may become the family go-to gyuto, it pays to get something good enough to enjoy.  I suggest the Richmond Artifex or Fujiwara FKM as entry-level "good."  

3.  Knife alloys are a very complicated subject, and VG-10 is especially so because it was so overrated.  It's a very good alloy if its hardened and ground right, but problematic if it isn't.  The biggest problem was its tendency to chip -- even in san-mai knives -- especially until it was sharpened a few times.  Don't ask my why sharpening changes things, because I don't know.  

Okay, you can ask.  But I still don't know.  

It's a good alloy in the right knife, but I wouldn't choose one knife over another strictly because one was VG-10.  It's a good idea not to be too impressed by so called objective distinctions like particular alloys or Rockwell hardness numbers.  What you're really looking for are certain performance characteristics, especially comfort, edge taking and edge holding.  

Profile can be a big part of comfort and efficiency, but since neither of you has an established "action," your knife will train you.  You can adapt to just about any profile which isn't too weird.   Nevertheless if you're going to keep your knives sharp, I suggest a French profile (like most Japanese knives) over a German profile (most western knives and Shun). 

4.  I suggest putting the screen in a large, flat sheet pan with the pan itself on something hard and flat.  You're going to use a lot of water and get "mud" everywhere unless you do something to keep it contained.  You want low sides so they don't get in your way.  Consequently, sheet pan ftw. 

You're asking the wrong person about nakiri vs santoku.  I don't care for or "understand" either profile as more useful than an ordinary, 10" chef's and am quite likely to veer off into incoherent sputtering.  Don't interpret my dislike, lack of understanding, or general bad attitude as particularly meaningful.  It's just me.

BDL

Hi CLEngman...

My method for flattening the stones is to soak them as if I were going to sharpen, or when the stone is ready right after sharpening.I draw a big X with a pencil on the stone, I just put a paper kitchen towel on an absolutely flat surface, wich was my marble table for working with chocolate, but now is just a table with thick glass on top (BDL told me that glass was as flat as flat can be...and it works just like he described it) on top of the paper, I place the drywall screen and I proceed to flatten the stone applying considerable pressure while I go with front- backwards movements, I rotate the stone a few times to make sure that all surfaces are getting even pressure and same number of strokes.

I rinse the stone 2 or 3 times in the process and when the "X" is totally erased I just start with the sides of the stone giving them something like 45 degrees angle.

I try to flatten every time after sharpening, that way the process is easier and takes less time. If you let the stone get "dished", flattening gets tiring and a dirty muddy messy business, my advice is to do it more often.

There are several videos on sharpening and flattening (But with a flattening stone) here http://www.chefknivestogo.com/vitu.html the principles are the same.

On the santoku / Nakiri thing, both knives work fine for chopping SMALL quantities of herbs or chopping a shallot or two. I used to work long ago with a Nakiri and it's a fine knife when you're chopping a small bunch of fine herbs, but nothing beats a long chef knife to dice or chop a big bunch of scallions/cilantro/parsley and you name it. Now I use those small knives only to carve the lacquered duck in my dining room. As long as you don't process big quantities of food, both knives are ok, they are very different to everything else.

If you're very curious on them, get a Tojiro shirogami a CKTG, both models cost the same and take and hold a wicked edge without costing too much. They are very "rustic looking" (I don't want to say ugly as hell) and take a "funny" patina almost immediately, the look is a bit dirty but that's the way those knives are, but the sharp edge will always be there. Take a look http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toshna161.html

Best regards and good luck!

Luis

I have, and like using a nakiri. Why ... because it's cool and I like it.      I like to feel cool cutting up vegetables w/ a vegetable knife. Is that any good reason?    Yes ... for me.    For you?    Probably not so much, unless you agree.     I have, and like using a santoku.  Mine "feels", in my hands, like a really good knife when I need some speed.    Again, probably not such a good reason for you because you are you, and not me.  We all have our own reasons.     What I'm getting at is that we all pick and use what we like because we have our own feelings and opinions.    You can get either from quality makers on the cheap. You can pick up either from decent makers on the real cheap. 

If you think you got your Henckels sharp, wait til you try some knives which take a good edge.

BDL

CLEngman, my wife also prefers a santoku to a chefs knife. I couldn't quite understand it at first, but hey, everyone is different and it's what she wanted. Her wants and my price range were very similar to yours and your wifes. We ended up getting a MAC MSK-65 6 1/2 santoku and it has worked like a dream. We steel it generally before and after every cooking session and it is always able to cut arm hair with ease. Is it the best knife out there? Absolutely not, there are 50 other knives I'd rather have, but for the money and what you are wanting to get out of a knife for that price range, I'd say seriously consider it.

Your screen in a pan will only be as flat as the surface the pan sits on.  I recommend going to a local glass guy and asking for a piece of 1/4" plate glass.  Mine gives them to me as they are Oops's and destined for the recycle bin.  1/4" plate is very flat and true - I use it for lapping small precision parts.  I might try using it for diamond lapping. 

I'd get a 12" or 300mm slicing knife - it's nice to make a cut with a single stroke.  I use a 300mm Yanagiba, but I have an old Dexter Russell slicer that is 14" long and whisper thin for special occasion big cuts. 

I am coming to this thread a little late, but for flattening your water stones ,Lee Valley tools has a product designed to "true" water stones.  I too dabble in woodworking and enjoy cooking.  I find that pleasure in both require quality tools that are sharp.

Here is a link to the item.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=55067&cat=1,43072,67174&ap=1

Enjoy,

GCarroll