Should I keep the miyabi birchwood sg2 or get the Masamoto KS 240mm Gyutou?

Yes, it's absolutely the right call -- as long as you're willing to put up with carbon in a work situation.  The KS is a truly great knife. Just frikkin' magic.

BDL

I feel like I could pretty much answer "for" BDL your particular questions... but I won't.  I won't deprive you or me of the pleasure of his more detailed response.

But just to assuage any hesitation... carbon steel knives require the same attention as others, pretty much, just sooner.  No laziness.  Rinse and towel dry after cutting.  Don't leave it on the board wet when you have dinner.  If you're cutting acidic things, rinse and towel try something like immediately. Now. 

You have a variety of options with patina formation (whether to force or not to force).... BDL has one take on that.  I'm not sure, as a home cook, I'm with it any more, but I'll let him talk it through and then decide. 

The Masamoto KS is not a thick knife by any means, but it's not a "laser" like the Konosuke is.  I lust after knives both thicker and thinner... but would LOVE to have a Masa KS.  It's a classic profile, an "ideal" for lots of folks.  I know profile can be a matter of taste, so you might or might not be lots of folks. 

I've never held or seen the Takeda AS... so I'll hold my tongue on theories as what that's all about.

White #2 is known to be easy to sharpen and to get pretty damn absurdly sharp. It might not hold an edge as long as some of your other options. (Personally, as a home cook, I'm finding that *in fact* edge retention is far less important to me than I thought at first.  I don't get enough sharpening practice in because my knives, which have "average" edge retention, have very good edge retention! If you're cooking in much larger volumes or against harder boards, or are otherwise particularly hard on your edges, maybe this will be different for you).

I'm nothin' like an expert on the different steels (Hitachi or otherwise). 

Theoretically, the whites will be easier to sharpen and maybe even get sharper than the blues (ok, so I'm starting to answer your Takeda question -- might as well finish: the Super Blue ("AS") in the Takeda will theoretically have the best  edge retention of any we're talking about, get very hard, and be more difficult to sharpen; maybe not get *as* sharp as the whites -- but at this level, we're talking about beyond-me sharpening skills required to notice, so I'm just talking about what I've read. And hopefully remembering correctly.  I hope someone more expert than I corrects me if I'm wrong!)

White #1 has more carbon than #2; it is harder (assuming heat treatments are done right on both) which means better edge retention than 2, probably; but it's more brittle (i.e., more likely to chip).

I think for home use we're getting into realms of theoretical differences -- or, more importantly maybe, differences between what particular knife makers do well. For a pro? I'm not sure -- except "easier to sharpen" is a big deal as a beginner sharpener; yet... longer edge retention is a bigger deal for someone who works in a pro environment.

The Konosukes will have a similar but not the same profiles as the Masamotos, and they'll be thinner knives. Some people chase thinness for its own sake, some prefer the robustness of something slightly less thin, and perhaps a bit more leeway in modifying the grind ("convexing" the blade face and such).   .... I'm in over my head.  I don't have a true laser (like the Konosuke) gyuto; and the Masamoto KS is another of those "future dream purchase" knives.  I've got about 5 of those...

NOTE: you are a Line Cook, I'm not... you go through a lot more volume of food than I do on an every-day basis.  This makes me think edge retention is probably far higher up your list of priorities than mine.  Something to keep in mind. The Masamoto White #2 has less edge retention than the other knives we're discussing (if I have all of this right).

It's a beloved steel all right... your technique has to be consistently good (or at least not ever bad) so as not to torque/twist the knife in the cut on hard veggies when you're in a hurry on the line.  It's a very thin knife.  I've held them... not used.

I hope BDL weighs in.  Or Jon on the various steels.

You gotta invest in sharpening stones, too, if you're not set up already.  (Just a bit of budgeting advice -- I don't know if you have this taken care of).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuma 


Thanks again for the help. I happened upon the Konosuke HD line and I'm starting to wonder if this isn't a better route for daily use in the kitchen.

I own both a konosuke HD and a masamoto KS gyuto.   My recommendation in a professional kitchen would have to be for the konosuke, the luxury of being able to not worry about babying your knife in a pro kitchen goes a long way.  The masamoto is a fantastic knife, but the relaxed upkeep of the konosuke just makes it more desirable.   I also prefer the shape of the kono because it has a little more belly, although I think most people prefer the shape of the Masamoto.

I could theorize that the blades look to be a different color because of a) the lighting, or b) they're not both showing the HD steel. The latter happens a lot on the internet.  One picture for the profile, or the handle, or whatever. In spite of the steels being different -- same picture.

D-shaped handles are meant to be for (usually) right handed user.   So the curve of the "D" nesltes into the palm of your hand.  Supposedly more comfortale than something with edges, like a square or... wait for it... an octagon.

I've never found an octagonal handle to be in any way uncomfortable. And I prefer they way they lok to a"D'. 

Whether a "D" will be uncomfortable to a lefty who uses your knife, who knows.  That won't be the most important asymmetry to worry about, either, though.

Same steel, different lighting. 

Octagonal, for me.  I have a super soft pinch with barely any pressure from my last fingers, and come over the top so I don't have much more than the finger tips on the handle.  A "D" doesn't fit that grip well, it's more for people who like to wrap their palm around the knife.  What you'll like, quien sabe?

If you've never used carbon you might want to think twice before making a KS your go-to in a pro kitchen.  If you clean your station after every ticket you won't find a carbon knife any sort of problem. 

I think the 270mm Masa KS is an ideal knife; but as much as I like it I like a few lasers just as much.  E.g., the 270mm Konosuke HD, 270mm Kono Shiro2 and maybe Kono FF; Tadatusna Inox and Shiro; and the Gesshin Ginga.    

I'd like to give one of the premium steel Richmond KS closes a try. 

I"ve got a few Konosuke HDs, and really like them.  Like I said, "ideal."  Love lasers, and love the "original" Kono profile which suits my Sabatier-trained action extremely well.  I probably wouldn't like the "new," flatter profile nearly as much.

If you've never used a laser you might want to think twice before making a Kono your go-to in a pro kitchen.  The issue is flex.  If you always (as in always) keep your knife square in the cut -- flex isn't an issue.  If you tend to pronate, torque or get out of line when your in a hurry, a little flex can make your knife bind.  So, the underlying issue is skills.  If you can rely on your skills to never desert you, you should be okay.  If not, go with something a little thicker and stiffer.  Lots of good choices.

Sharpening, sharpening, sharpening.

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

 and love the "original" Kono profile which suits my Sabatier-trained action extremely well.  I probably wouldn't like the "new," flatter profile nearly as much.

 

 

I was under the impression the "new" kono shape a couple of sites were offering were the same shape as the masamoto KS, is that not the case?

Konosuke Profiles:

It was my impression that (a) the new Konosuke was flatter than the old Kono which I own; (b) the old Kono  is flatter than my Sabatiers;  and (c) my Sabatiers are the same as the Masamoto KS.  It's possible that I'm wrong about the new Kono and/or that there's a newer new Konosuke. 

My knife skills "training" (if you want to call it that) was with Sabatier chef's knives in the early seventies.  A few years later, I started a catering business and replaced my carbon knives with some stainless Henckels because I thought they'd be easier to maintain.  Almost a decade later I rediscovered my old Sabs and realized how much more I liked them -- partly for their French profile.  The Henckels altered my action in a way appropriate to their shape, but the Sab profile suited my old, trained action so much better. The Sab action, which is kind of in between "rock chop" and "push cut" was more comfortable, and more agile.  It didn't rock so much that I felt like I was pumping the handle, and wasn't so flat that it made a bunch of noise by tap, tap, tapping on the board. 

The KS, like every other Masamoto chef's feels the same to me.  It should, it's cloned from a Sabatier.  My original Konosuke HD was sufficiently similar that it didn't ask me to adapt -- at least not enough enough to notice. 

If you don't already have an established chopping action and aren't too lazy (guilty) or too unambitious (guilty) to change it, bear in mind that any good knife will impose its own efficient and comfortable action, if -- like adapting to any new tool -- you "listen" to what the knife tells you.  There is no best.  My suggestion though is that you go for a knife with a reasonably middle of the road French profile; i.e., nothing too flat and nothing too German.

For some reason, guys who get seriously into Japanese knives often obsess about very flat profiles.  If you're more interested in cooking than the knives themselves and not interested in developing a particularly Japanese skill set, that's probably not a good idea.  Flat edges make too much noise, I hate them.  But as always, one BDL is more than enough.  I'm not encouraging you to do what I do, only to examine all your options.

As to sharpening:

I've got four complete sharpening sets, oil stone; synthetic water stone; EP with Chosera stones; and strop. 

I usually use my water stone set to sharpen my Konosukes.  The set currently consists of a Beston 400, Bester 1200, Chosera 3000 and a Gesshin 8000.  I got the Gesshin recently and am too excited about it not to use it.  In the past, when my old Naniwa SS 8000 was the polishing stone,  I'd sometimes skip it in favor of loaded, balsa strops after the 3K, with 2u boro and 0.25u diamond (both from Hand American).  Both edges are awesome, and both are vast overkill. 

If I were putting together a new, ultimate water stone kit, it would be Gesshin 400, Gesshin 2000 and Gesshin 8000.  I wouldn't recommend that though unless you were both seriously interested in sharpening and didn't mind dropping a lot of change.  Your best choices for a set are going to depend not only on what you want to do with your new whatever, but with your other knives as well.

As a sort of blanket recommendation for someone with good knives and a reasonable budget:  Beston 400; Bester 1200; Takenoko 6000; non-skid pad instead of a holder; drywall screen -- or if you can afford it, a DMT XXC -- for flattening; and an Idahone fine ceramic hone, plus either a wine cork or a felt block for deburring.

BDL

Is it also possible the Masamoto KS is flatter than the Sabs?  I have a terrible  eye for profiles in pictures, so I'm not at all sure.  It appears to me the KS is flatter than the HC (yo-handled). And the HC is the same as the Sabs.

I have not seen the newer/flatter Konosukes in person. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuma 

One last thing, it is common to have microchips/chips on a brand new factory japanese edge right?

 

Thanks. 

No. There's just no other way to say it but that just *ucks. Since you wanted the newer profile I'd just return it.

There's no point in starting out with multiple regrets on a purchase like this.

Looking back in the thread I would have strongly suggested 270mm for work. I find 240 or even shorter a good choice for home cooks but for those in professional kitchens 270 is just a better all around choice IMO.

In regards to the Masamoto KS it's an awesome blade.

Another knife that should have been given just as much consideration as the Konosuke is the Sakai, either standard or laser, from Blueway Japan on eBay. Just an awesome blade for the $$.

I would not have let caring for for carbon at work steer you away from the Masamoto but depending on where you work having such a fine blade grow legs or get grabbed by some one else to use when your not looking could be a factor worthy of serious consideration. Having said that any of the knives we are talking about in this thread will stand out on most kitchens and all of those caveats will still apply for most professional cooks. I think it's probably a bit over stated to think that the Kono is going to "hold up" better than the Masamoto KS. Not only will the Masamoto stay sharper longer if you do your part, fit and finish is better. There's still a lot to be said for the Kono or the Sakai for that matter but there is a reason there are so many KS clones. ;)

 I greatly prefer octagonal handles especially if you start to look at the Mizuno. The handles on those are like chopped off broom sticks.

Dave

Dave -- Can you say anything about the two different Sakai Yusukes?

You're saying "standard" and "laser".  Am I right in thinking they're "standard" is pretty much the same thinness as others' "lasers" and they also have an even thinner "ultra-thin" that you're calling the laser?  I'm just a bit confused about these from reading threads on other forums, where they get recommended a lot.  And were so before the newer/thinner version, as well.

I think of the standard Sakai like the Masamoto KS. Not a thick knife but not a laser either. IIR the Masamo is 2.5mm @ the heel vs 2.2-2.3 for the standard Sakai and 1.3 for the laser!

The Sakai by most accounts has a better F&F than the Kono. A buyer would be hard pressed to make a poor choice from this group. The standard Sakai would be my first pick for a line cook in this price range.

Dave

I was thinking about them incorrectly, then.  Sorry to make you repeat yourself -- I appreciate the confirmation of your prior info, though!

I think one reason the Konosukes caught so much attention, at least on the knife forums, was the HD line.  It's an attractive steel. 

BluewayJapan has a Sakai Yusuke in Swedish steel that AFAIK is AEB-L so if your after SS that knife and the Kono would be a direct comparison with the Sakai getting the nod in F&F.

Some claim better food release and edge retention with the Sakai than with the Kono but IMO that's splitting a fine hair and probably a bit subjective. All great choices no matter how you slice it.  ;)

Dave

The Sakai Yusuke stainless is kind of on the soft and tough side for a modern gyuto, at a claimed 58RCH.  Duck, what makes you think it's AEB-L? 

The Konosuke HH stainless is better hardened, harder (claimed 61RCH), and sells at about the same price.   My experience with Konosuke F&F has been excellent.

Also, those two are not the only choices.  If you're fairly close to pulling the trigger on a purchase you should call both Mark at CKtG and Jon at JKI.  You won't find better sources.

BDL

There was a lengthly thread on KK about the Sakai and the general concensus was the SS version is AEB-L or a close variant with several members that own both the Sakai and the Kono in agreement that the Sakai holds an edge longer and has better food release. I think I'd have to niggle a bit about the Kono being hardened "better" especially when we see knives getting delivered with chips but in either event I've seen a few claim that Yusuke is now doing custom hardening to HRC 61 for an extra $15 on the SS. Either way these are both nice knives. I'm not sure how the price point would compare to a Gessin from Jon but I agree that would certainly be worth comparing as well.

Dave