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lactic acid development

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

Hello All,

I am interested in getting your thoughts on developing a maximum amount of lactic acid in my pre'ferment. Recipe, 1/4 cup water mixed with 1/8 tsp dry yeast, set aside.

                                    65 gm. A.P. flour

                                    10 gm W.W. flour

                                     60 gm water

                                     1 Tblsp of the yeasted water

Beat well by hand for 2 min, cover and let rest at room temp for 18-24 hrs. This results in a hydration of 100%, which if I understand correctly is suppose to develop the homofermentive bacteria present in the environment. Flour environment and or air environment? , which in turn creates lactic acid. Yes? Now, because I can{t actually see the lactic acid I, of course, need to wait until I can taste the bread to see if I like the results. Question, does my method develop the maximum amount of lactic acid? Also, is the lactic acid in milk, fresh or dry, the same lactic acid? Please share your thoughts. Thanks

post #2 of 17

It is a derivitive of dairy products. I believe whole milk yougurt a good source  . And you can buy it dry as you can lactose which is milk or dairy sugar.  Careful, many people are alergic to this.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 

Perhaps I misled folks. I am interested in lactic acid not acetic acid. Unless I'm mistaken yogurt and sour cream both have high concentrations of the latter. What I want is the mild flavor that lactic acid produces for a laof I'm currently working on.

post #4 of 17

OK, I am, by absolutely no means, an expert or even profess to be knowledgeable concerning lactic acid fermentation but from what I can find, it deals with fermentation of dairy or vegetable products rather than wheat.

 

Take a look at http://www.tempeh.info/fermentation/lactic-acid-fermentation.php

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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post #5 of 17

We are cooks, bakers and restaurant or food service people not chemist . I would suggest you consult a site that deals  more in detail with what you are looking for. Good Luck

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhiting View Post

Perhaps I misled folks. I am interested in lactic acid not acetic acid. Unless I'm mistaken yogurt and sour cream both have high concentrations of the latter...

 

Wrong.  Acetic acid is the stuff of vinegar, especially white vinegar whereas lactic acid is the stuff of sour milk and muscle aches.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #7 of 17

YOU ARE CORRECT kOKOPUFFS.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 

I think we got off the track a little. All I wanted was info from a baker regarding lactic acid development in a preferment. And, yes, I'm well aware that lactic acid is created when vegetable matter is fermented. Regarding acetic acid in a preferment, all I meant was that it is much sharper flavored than lactic acid. So, can an experienced baker talk with me about ways to gain the most lactic acid in a preferfent and, of course, in the final dough.

post #9 of 17

Try reading http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdolacticbacteriaaffects.html

 

or this: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

 

or this: http://www.eolss.net/sample-chapters/c10/e5-08-06-04.pdf
 

from what I can deduce from a quick glance, you must introduce some bacteria to achieve the results you are after.

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 

Thank you very much Pete. I will read those right now.

post #11 of 17

I'm not a professional baker nor chemist nor microbiologist but I have baked a few sourdoughs and have my rye starter going. As you can learn in the articles, LAB produce mostly lactic acid and these are by far the most prevalent. However, trust me, lactic acid can be, just like any acid, very sharp in sufficient concentrations. And a sourdough starter IS sour. However, that doesn't mean that the bread will be sour too. I've baked breads that were very sour and breads that were hardly sour at all, with just a hint. It all depends on how long you ferment the bread and how much starter you use.

 

To create an environment favourable to homo-LAB, you need temperature in the vicinity of 30°C-32°C, but not more than 35°C. Though keep in mind that it may take time to start a starter and more time for it to mature. I did it like this: mixed 50g organic whole rye flour with 50g dechlorinated water, let it stand covered overnight, stirred, covered and then kept tasting every 12 hours or so until it was sour, then added the flour and the water again, 24 hours again and so on for a few days until I got reliable rises. A stable starter should smell like beer/wine mixed with fresh yeast (sometimes the yeast element is barely perceptible). What it should NOT smell like is cheese, or any other totally unpleasant smells.

 

For future reference:

LACTIC ACID = DAIRY, also fermented vegetables, bread, sore muscles and other stuff - think lactose intolerance, lactation

ACETIC ACID = VINEGAR and also other stuff - think aceto balsamico

post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 

thank you so much for the last post. It sure gives me something to think about and try. I have been loathe to do a levain because I don't really care for sourdough bread (San Francisco sourdough). I mean it's alright on occassion but I much prefer the milder flavor "New Orleans Style French bread. But , as you say, a sour starter does not need to result in a sour bread. I did not know that. Thanks again

post #13 of 17

What has proved to be a tasty bread that is hardly sour at all was a Czech-style light rye. I used 210g white rye flour, 210g 100% hydration starter made exclusively with organic whole rye flour, 280g bread flour (I'm not sure if the American bread flour is the same as the Czech or Slovak flour I used, so you may use instead the all-purpose flour I guess? I'll leave it to you.), about 2% salt (makes it around 10g if I'm not mistaken) and 1/2 teaspoon whole caraway fruits. I'm not sure about the amount of water but it was around 300g. I mixed it all together except the salt, left it for 30 minutes to autolyze, then added salt, kneaded it all, and left to ferment until doubled. I actually skipped shaping and proofing and it worked. It produced a nice loaf with a very pronounced rye flour that I loved, only a hint of sour, and it was stunning with butter and strawberry jam.

 

That amount of starter seems to have worked. A smaller amount would probably need more time to rise and thus more time for the LAB to do their work, that means more sour taste. A larger amount maybe wouldn't dilute the starter enough. Also, I didn't ferment it too long, maybe 4 hours, not more than 5 (that's actually not too much for a sourdough). The ideal temperature to ferment the dough is 26°C, that's what yeasts like best and it's not that great for LAB, so yeasts will be relatively most numerous. A lower temperature would result in longer fermentation time and more hetero-LAB action it seems. A higher temperature seems to produce bread that is more sour, too (more homo-LAB action?).

post #14 of 17

delete delete delete


Edited by kokopuffs - 8/31/12 at 1:30pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayertplsko View Post

What has proved to be a tasty bread that is hardly sour at all was a Czech-style light rye. I used 210g white rye flour, 210g 100% hydration starter made exclusively with organic whole rye flour, 280g bread flour (I'm not sure if the American bread flour is the same as the Czech or Slovak flour I used, so you may use instead the all-purpose flour I guess? I'll leave it to you.), about 2% salt (makes it around 10g if I'm not mistaken) and 1/2 teaspoon whole caraway fruits. I'm not sure about the amount of water but it was around 300g. I mixed it all together except the salt, left it for 30 minutes to autolyze, then added salt, kneaded it all, and left to ferment until doubled. I actually skipped shaping and proofing and it worked. It produced a nice loaf with a very pronounced rye flour that I loved, only a hint of sour, and it was stunning with butter and strawberry jam.

 

That amount of starter seems to have worked. A smaller amount would probably need more time to rise and thus more time for the LAB to do their work, that means more sour taste. A larger amount maybe wouldn't dilute the starter enough. Also, I didn't ferment it too long, maybe 4 hours, not more than 5 (that's actually not too much for a sourdough). The ideal temperature to ferment the dough is 26°C, that's what yeasts like best and it's not that great for LAB, so yeasts will be relatively most numerous. A lower temperature would result in longer fermentation time and more hetero-LAB action it seems. A higher temperature seems to produce bread that is more sour, too (more homo-LAB action?).

 

Based on starter formulas I've read here in the states, it takes around a week or so for a starter to develop properly and NOT the time it takes to simply to knead, autolyse and rise over short period of time.

EDIT: should your autolyse be allowed to develop 8 hours or so, overnight, then it would be labeled as a pre-ferment.  But starters themselves take at least a week to develop from the very getgo, slav.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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post #16 of 17

Of course, it takes about a week for a starter to develop and then, with proper care, it lasts forever. I used a mature starter in the bread, of course.

post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayertplsko View Post ...(I'm not sure if the American bread flour is the same as the Czech or Slovak flour I used, so you may use instead the all-purpose flour I guess? I'll leave it to you.), ...

 

It's like wine grapes, they all differ by region and sometimes within the same plot for subsequent crops.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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