Gyuto and Sujihiki

Green Guy, if you use a Suji, you should use a less finesse knife for the fish prep work.

I have broken down many whole fish including 10-25 lb salmon (steaking and fileting). Just my opinion but you already have a nice knife for that ... the Forschner Breaking knife ... thin slices will be much nicer with a Suji/slicer type of knife.

I may be also on the look out for a Suji, for home use (incl. catering and bbq comps) though and much less expensive than your budget.

The Misono Sweden is an excellent yo-suji.  Best is another question.  Best for whom?  Best for what?  There's lots of competition in carbon sujis at the price, including  Masamoto HC, Kikuichi Elite Carbon, Konosuke White #2 to name a few. 

A suji is a poor choice for breaking large fish.  You want something (a) which won't chip on bones, and (b) which is quite a bit stiffer.  On the other hand, it's an optimal choice for portioning.

The Kikuichi Elite alloy is NKS-52, aka SKS-5 tool steel.

On your list of gyuto, only the Konosuke is a laser.  It is also the only yo-gyuto on your list, and as far as I know the White #2 series gyuto are not available with a wa handles.  However, the HD, semi-stainless series is.  

Nothing against the Kikuichi, but the Konosuke is a better knife in every other, objective respect.  Although not a laser, the Masamoto HC is also an exceptionally good knife, and far better than the Kikuichi, with a great, Sabatier-like profile.  It and the Konosuke are the class of the field of knives on your list. 

T-I's factory edges on the Nogents run the gamut from not very good, to very bad, to horrible, to "Edge?  What edge? I don't got to show you no stinkin' edge."  If you still have the knife you might want to try creating a new edge from scratch.  Reprofile to a flat bevel, 15* on both sides, with a slight 60/40 asymmetry, make sure you deburr thoroughly, and see if that doesn't work for you. 

BDL

How does HD compare to White #2? 

• They're very close.  HD feels like carbon on the stones, very pleasant, very smooth.  Konosukes are so thin that with a good knife and edge geometries play more of a factor than the alloys' potentials for absolute sharpness, which are very close anyway.  I treat all my knives as though they were carbon, so -- for me -- maintenance is about the same except that I don't rub the HDs down with baking soda every time I sharpen.   I have nothing but praise for either alloy. 

Is the Kikuichi Carbon Elite "as good" as the other, more expensive sujis? 

• That's a question I can't answer.  So much depends on your own preferences, how far you let an edge go before sharpening, your sharpening skills, and your maintenance routine.  It's a very good knife, which would work well in a professional environment, but which wouldn't be near the bottom of my personal short list.  Even if I would consider a yo-suji, I'd spend the extra few bucks for a more prestigious alloy.  My advice?  Don't worry about my personal short list, worry about yours.

BDL

Have to admit I miss your way of wording things I really need to find time to get back here more often.

Much as that is good advice I believe there is still something to be learned by the preference of others, and especially in respect to products you don't really know about.

It is sort of weird but after you read enough replies from different members you can sort of figure out certain things and in some way put things into a "online" perspective.

I remember when I first found this site and was trying to get a handle on what would be a suitable first J knife etc I found a post by a member on one of the brands being considered very helpful as it was from his view from using it everyday at work etc. Not that I intended to have the same use as I had not worked in the business for around 20 years, but adding his input to what I had already from so many others just allowed a better understanding etc.

Since I am trying to add a suji myself I am finding the comparisons here helpful as well, and since I may not be able to spend on another Konosuke HD (my preference from my experience with the gyuto I already have) I am really curious how the carbon ones compare, and if there are any true standouts that are priced lower enough to make it a no brainer etc..

There are important things going beyond edge taking and holding properties, geometry and comfort, like aesthetic appeal and "pride of ownership," which go to making a good fit between knife and owner.   I know from my own experiences of seeking advice, that someone rating a bunch of knives 1, 2, 3 makes things more confusing than doing much illumination, because -- after all -- who can you trust?  So many people who give advice want you to use whatever they chose for themselves that after awhile you realize the recommendation is more about them than the knife because they would have liked almost anything they'd bought equally well, so the recommendation becomes meaningless. 

For a lot of people -- specifically the type of people who seek "expert" advice in knife and cooking forums -- figuring out which recommendations can and cannot be trusted is impossible.  At this stage of the game, you've figured out that when someone says "my XYZ knife stays sharp enough to shave with for a year with only an occasional trip to my Spyderco Sharpmaker," quotes Alton Brown, or -- well a lot of things -- that's someone to avoid.  But most people haven't figured that out, because they simply don't know enough about knives, knife skills, sharpening, sharpening skills or internet self-proclaimed experts. 

I don't care whether you make the same choices I do or even follow my advice about which knife to buy.  The idea is to give you enough information so that you can figure out what's most important to you, what will work best for you in your situation, and avoid an expensive mistake so that you can better enjoy cooking.  It's just perspective. 

BDL

The Misono Sweden is a very nice knife indeed.  It takes and holds a great edge; has a very comfortable handle; a nice profile; and of course there's the dragon -- which makes the knife especially nice for ceremonial occasions at home; and for a pro's carving station and buffet use.  The only knock against the knife I can think of is that it's extremely reactive compared to other high-end yo-sujis.  IMO the Masamoto HC is a slightly better knife overall, and a K-Sabatier or Nogent is its (very different) equal.

All hail the Sweden! 

However, it's not a laser.  The Misono is a thin knife, but -- at pain of repetition -- it's not a laser.  What's the big deal about lasers?  Thin, thin, thin; and that makes them seem sharper.  To help you understand what I mean let me explain the difference between what I call absolute sharpness and perceived sharpness.  "Absolute sharpness is a measure of how thin at the apex (very sharp edges run between 3/1000" and 1/1000") and how true the edge is.  "Perceived sharpness" is a measure of sharpness in practice; i.e. how sharp does the blade cut, how sharp does the blade feel in the cut, etc. 

Everything else being equal, as a product of their thin bodies lasers will give you more perceived sharpness.  The trade off is that they're so thin they flex a lot -- which means you have to keep them square to the cut, square in the cut, and square to the board.  If you torque the knife it will bend and bind, and consequently won't cut straight. 

Laser gyuto aren't a great idea for high pressure prep or use on the line, unless you have excellent skills; mostly because time pressure makes for a tight grip, which makes for torquing; which in turn causes binding and unintentional steering; which in turns makes for uneven, non-straight cuts.   But for anyone with solid skills or a home cook who has the luxury of taking the time to get things right and correct them when they first start to go wrong -- not a problem.  That's something of an evolutionary idea in that when lasers first became popular they were recommended for "experts only."  But it seems nearly everyone likes them, so...  We can't all be wrong, can we?  Okay, we can, but...

Almost everyone LOVES the Suisun Inox Honyaki wa handle.  It is large, though.  FYI the usual solution to a too large handle is too soften your own grip and stabilize the handle more with your finger tips than by wrapping your fingers all the way around it.  But there are always exceptions and some handles just don't work for some people.  If you don't like the Suisun handle, you don't like it -- and besides there's no particularly good reason to pay Suisun Inox Honyaki prices anymore. 

All of the lasers on your list are extremely good.  Considering that you'll be using the knife for years, I suggest forgetting about the relatively small price differences and using more important considerations -- including looks. 

I have a Konosuke HD 300mm suji and love it.

BDL

Knives:

Moritaka Suji:

Moritakas have a reputation for shoddy QC, especially the grind, and indifferent F&F.   But reputations don't always keep up with reality, and -- to make things a little more confusing -- the knife universe has an emotional split between Mark and Jon and some criticisms of Mark's stock may sound louder than they otherwise would.   So, it's something you should think of as more rumor than fact, but it's something I'd ask Mark about.  Anyway, I don't like them because they're san-mai.  I wouldn't be overly concerned about Moritaka sujis chipping, at least they don't have that reputation and sujis usually don't take the abuse that causes the problem.  But again that's more fodder for your conversation with Mark. 

While I love my Kono HD suji dearly, let me throw you a curve ball and suggest that you consider the Misono Sweden as your suji, and not as your gyuto. 

Misono vs Kono vs Gesshin vs ???:

You have to decide whether you're going wa or yo, and whether you're going laser or merely thin.  If you want a laser, you won't be getting one with a Misono Sweden.  In the non-laser class the Masamoto HC is a better knife than the Misono, even without the dragon. 

I've never used a laser yo-gyuto, but have used all of the brands you've mentioned as wa-gyuto.  The Gesshin and Konosuke are a push.  The Sakai Yusuke has slightly less good F&F, but if you buy from Mark instead of Blueway you overcome the biggest problem which is dealer support.  I think saving $40 for a knife you'll use everyday for a period of years is a false economy and would go with the Gesshin or Konosuke.  But that reflects my values and may not reflect yours. 

Stones:

My last polishing stone was a Naniwa SS  8K, which I bought used and wore out after about two years.  There are a lot of very nice things to say about the Naniwa SS 8K and 10K, but the first thing which must be said is that they're both VERY soft and prone to gouging.  Experts only! 

When it did wear out, I replaced it with the best, ultra fine polishing stone I've ever used:  The Gesshin 8K.  It's fast, as much about sharp as it is about shine, splash and go, doesn't need much flattening, etc.  In other words, all the usual virtues and in spades.  However, it's extremely expensive and may be out of your price range.  Further, there's some question in my mind whether it makes practical sense to spend that kind of money on a stone even if you can afford it. 

The two best, "reasonably" priced stones are the Naniwa Pure White and Kitayama.  The Pure White will give you a better shine and perhaps a little edge [sorry, I can't help myself) in sharpness compared to the Kitayama, the Kitayama will give you a more misty look with a longer wearing edge.  They can be used one after the other -- in either order -- for an ultimate edge, but the pair costs as much as a Gesshin 8K and used in tandem aren't nearly as convenient.

The Chosera 10K is another really good stone, but is just about as expensive as the Gesshin 8K and not as good.  Perhaps a bit faster than either the Pure White or Kitayama, but otherwise no better, and twice the price. 

You're probably not going to get much actual sharpening by using an ultra-fine polishing stone to "touch up" on a daily basis.  What you will get is fairly effective truing -- in other words it's the equivalent of using a steel,  In fact, a properly used steel would be faster and more convenient for the Misono Sweden or Masamoto HC.  If you want to sharpen daily -- i.e. raise a burr, chase the burr, and deburr -- you're going to want to start with a coarser and faster stone.   I use a Bester 1.2K, and because the jump from the Bester to the old Naniwa 8K was way too much and the jump to the Gesshin is still -- by just a little -- too much, I use a Chosera 3K in between.  

If I were putting a new kit together from scratch, I'd forget the Bester and Chosera in favor of a Gesshin 2K.  A good aoto would serve the same purpose as a Gesshin 2K, more cheaply but not as well.  But we're getting into specific sets which is (a) complicated; and (b) not the subject of your question.

Hope this helps,

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benuser 

As long as CKTG has no serious response to the numerous overgrind issues reported with Moritaka, I would stay away from them.

+1.  There's just no need to take that risk when there are so many other viable options.

Dave

The 270mm CN suji is currently on sale for $139 so at that price it's a steal. If I didn't already have a suj in my kit I'd snap that one up while it's in stock.

Dave

I saw the WA suj that Koki has but with the sale price on the CN I'm not sure even a WA fan like myself could justify the price difference. That's one of the best deals I've seen recently. I've yet to see any real edge issue on a CN. There's a lot of CN fans over @ KKF.

Dave

Curious which "wa handle" knife you were also looking at?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LennyD 

Curious which "wa handle" knife you were also looking at?

 I misread your post and was looking at the WA carbon core that Koki has @ JCK.

Dave