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Gyuto and Sujihiki - Page 2

post #31 of 42
A 2mm bevel means to me the blade is much too thick behind the edge. Go thinning til the bevel has disappeared.
post #32 of 42

Green Guy,

 

If I understand you correctly, the blade is sharpened at a more obtuse angle at the1mm bevel and more acutely at the 2mm bevels.  In other words, the 1mm bevel is a "high spot."  Fortunately it's easy to deal with high spots.  Section the knife using a coarse stone.  By sectioning, I mean grind only the area of the 1mm bevel until the bevels are even from shoulder to edge, along the entire length of knife until the belly approaches the tip; at that point, the bevel should gradually widen all the way to the point -- which you accomplish by lifting the handle a little as you profile and grind that area. 

 

The Magic Marker trick is very helpful any time you section, unless you know what to look for and how to spot it.  At any rate, if I'm right about what's going on, you'll find that the marker comes off the shoulder before coming off the edge when you first start profiling. 

 

Anyway, when you have an even bevel up to the belly, and the desired bevel along the belly to the point, re-sharpen the entire knife, making sure to keep the bevels straight.

 

I'm not sure what Ben User is trying to say, but that's probably my fault and not his.

 

BDL 

post #33 of 42
My proposal was to make relief bevel (=thinning behind the edge) until the existing bevel has gone; and then, make a new one.
It's another way to put it, the result will be the same.
post #34 of 42
Q.

Are you both saying that the area where the edge is shorter up towards the spine of the blade is or may be a result of the steel behind/above the edge being thicker than the other areas where the edge is 2mm?

Not that the size of my edges keeps me up at night etc but the changes in the edges are something I have given some thought to. wink.gif

At one time I figured it was due to my sharpening skills, but as time and skill changed I started to consider other variables like blade thickness etc.

Since sharpening my laser I realize that the blade can effect the edge no matter how well you hold an angle etc.

The only thing I still find a lil confusing is the asymmetric blades or edges as the added issues of two different edge heights and change in how you do both sides etc really complicate things.

So how to know your too thick behind the edge and need some thinning?

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #35 of 42
I wouldn't say the area behind the edge is thicker in one section than in another. Misonos are pretty well ground. I hope you don't mind if I rather suspect your sharpening.
If you've applied an angle of some 10 to 12 degree I don't expect a 2mm bevel, unless there is some thickness behind the edge. If the blade is properly thinned, the very edge is barely visible.
You may verify with the Magic Marker Trick where you would abrade if you were to apply very low angles.
Or use a micrometer: at 5mm from the edge reasonable values for your gyuto would be between .5 and 1mm.
Edited by Benuser - 12/25/12 at 5:04am
post #36 of 42
Thread Starter 

Thanks guys for the input.  Sometimes for me it takes a few sessions when sharpening a new knife to get the feel of the angles on it, so I'm pretty sure it was me holding it a too low of an angle as I moved closer to the tip.  Also, within the first couple days of using it at work, before I sharpened it, someone went to use it and it was dull at that point so I went to go steel it, but they did it and really went to town on it with a diamond rod, and maybe when I sharpened it I followed the line from that, although I'm not sure if that would remove enough metal to do that.  Anyway, I think the knife grind is fine and I just sharpened it incorrectly.  So Benuser began to touch on some of my questions I have now.  I haven't actually measured the angle I sharpen at, but I was thinking that the 2mm bevel might be too acute of an angle on this knife since it gets pretty heavy use, so I think I would actually like to sharpen at a slightly wider edge.  So would 10-12* be an appropriate angle for this knife?  Would sharpening it at this angle with out any additional thinning or anything weaken the blade or anything, or will it be fine just to sharpen it normally this way?  I guess it would sort of be like having a primary/secondary bevel in some spots.  I hope this makes sense, and thank you again for the advice.

post #37 of 42
It is rather hazardous to find out what is its actual edge after the nuclear, pardon, diamond rod attack. We may be quite sure nothing is left from the original edge, though. No disaster: the edge out of the box is nicely convexed and highly polished, but quite weak due to the factory buffering.
If you're fine with the blade's asymmetry, you may establish a relief bevel on the right side at the lowest angle you're comfortable with, till you raise a burr left. From that point on, you put a thin 15 degree bevel at the left side, and a 12 degree at the right one. According to your needs, you may strengthen them further with micro-bevels, stropping at a higher angle or whatever.
Instead of strengthening the edge along the entire blade, and losing some performance, you may limit it to specific sections. I've made a dead flat section of 3" near the heel - à la française - with a symmetric edge of 20 degree per side for rougher tasks. A 20 degree microbevel at the right side just near tip may be useful as well.

And make sure people with diamond rods stay away.
Edited by Benuser - 12/27/12 at 2:36am
post #38 of 42
" And make sure people with diamond rods stay away"

Abso-frickin-loutly wink.gif

Sorry if I misspelled that lol

One thing I have trouble having a good understanding or feel for is the idea of bringing higher end cutlery to the work place. I don't think I would be comfortable with bringing anything much above a Fujiwara or Tojiro to any of the places I had been at.

Just the idea of the countless ways those guys would have damaged them makes me cringe lol.

I guess if it was more of a specialized station like that you see most have for sushi etc it could work out OK, but anything like my experience or the majority of those I read about today etc I think its just looking for trouble.

We have to remember most those working in the back have little to no knowledge of the knives we commonly discuss here, and also the care required to keep them how we last like them etc.

The more I actually think about this the more find to be concerned about.

I mean imagine if that coworker didn't put your Misono to the diamond rod until after you got the edge just how you want it. That could mess up your day.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #39 of 42

Sharpen both sides at the same 15* angle.  Very few people can sharpen the respective sides to close but different angles without using some sort of angle holding gag.  And -- with apologies to Benuser -- since unequal angles won't make a positive difference in terms of absolute sharpness, perceived sharpness or durability,  why bother?

 

If you want a knife which you can steel to maintain, sharpen with 50/50 symmetry or at least no more than 60/40 - 70/30 asymmetry.  The 60/40 - 70/30 range (the bevel on one side is about twice as wide as the bevel on the other) is a sort of a sweet spot in that you get a fair part of the benefits of asymmetry with very little of the drawbacks. 

 

With more apologies to Benuser, I think sharpening the edge to a variety of different angles is too complicated to be a good idea -- with the exception that the angle should become more acute at the belly as it approaches the tip.   

 

If you're willing to sharpen frequently, you can sharpen a Misono Sweden as acute as 10*, with nearly complete asymmetry, and it will act very sharp indeed -- assuming reasonable competence sharpening and using.  But at that angle, or that much asymmetry, let alone with the two combined, the edge will collapse very easily and need frequent "touch ups" on a stone, because it's too asymmetric to maintain on a steel. 

 

The best angles are something of a moving target.  They depend on sharpening habits, sharpening skills, sharpening methods, how often the knife will be sharpened, maintenance skills, and so on.  There's always a tension between absolute sharpness and durability, and you're the only one who knows your sweet spot.  I usually sharpen my own knives with an eye more towards an easily maintained edge than extreme sharpness, but that's personal preference. 

 

BDL

post #40 of 42
Thread Starter 

Lenny, sometimes I wonder that, too, haha.  I enjoy and take pride in what I do, and I like having nice equipment to work with, so I don't mind spending the money on the knives that I have in my hand for hours every day.  I'm still relatively new to the biz, but I worked very briefly at a michelin star restaurant in NYC and everyone there had high end japanese knives and I realized that the properties of a well made knife can make a difference when working with very delicate ingredients.  Where I am now, I usually work alone on my station, except when working into dinner service, so usually no one uses my knife without asking, except for my chef who actually knows how to use them properly, so I don't mind.  And when I am working with someone who I know is going to break the tip off, I throw it in my bag and bring out the Forschner, lol.  But I suppose it's mostly for the enjoyment I get from it.

 

I spend most of my shift doing prep and knife work and I don't mind sharpening 2-3 times a week, and/or touching up before/after each shift, but I don't want to break out the stones in the middle of my shift.  So what I did was basically just sharpen as normal at about a 15* angle on both sides (going a little more acute towards the tip) with a 70/30 bevel.  I didn't try to even out the previous bevel, just sort of ignored it and went about my normal routine.  I started with a 1000 then 4000 then I used my new 8000 for the first time, and wow, never used a stone that fine before, and that knife took a really nice edge.  Much sharpen than before, or any of my other knives for that matter.  I did this last night and used it at work today, but it was a slow day and not much prep either (week after Christmas is always dead), but I did not have to used a steel all day and it still cut perfectly through some seared tuna towards the end of my shift.  So I think I am going to stick with this method for now, and I guess it'll all even out in time with sharpening regularly as well as occasional thinning.

 

Also, I got the Kikuichi 270 carbon elite suji for Christmas, and although it hasn't gotten much use yet, it's pretty comfortable and I do like it so far.  Nice weight and profile.  The factory edge seemed decent, not as good as the Misono, but I'm going to sharpen it before I go back to work and I'm real excited to put it to use.  Probably also going to do 70/30 at 15*, but maybe a little steeper and even more asymmetric.  It's mostly for the line and maybe some portioning, so mostly just slicing and not too much board contact, so maybe I can sacrifice some durability.  I currently have a Henkels Pro steel, it has groves and is pretty heavy, but I'm not sure if it is fine or medium, the description does not say.  Anyone use one before, and either way, would I be better off with the ceramic idahone?

 

Thanks again, you've all been very helpful.

post #41 of 42
Don't use your Henckels' steel with your Misono. I understand that steeling is an emergency solution, but please use a polished, non-grooved steel or a glass steel. Grooved steels fatigue the edge, and fatigued steel won't perform and has to be removed. This is why conventional steeling wears your blades.

By the way, BDL: no apologies, please, even as a style figure. The meaning of a forum is in the - I hope - intelligent juxtaposition of approaches. I prefer different angles with asymmetric blades because they somewhat compensate for the side effects, but if you think this is impractical, that's fine.

About steeling:
http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=551
post #42 of 42
Definitely get the Idahone or similar smooth rod.

The majority of steel honing rods will just damage your edge, and all the quality smooth steel ones I have found are more expensive than than the ceramics.

If cost is an issue there are some inexpensive ones (eBay/Amazon etc and Smiths comes to mind) out there and I think the one I have was under $10 and just needed the surface cleaned up with some fine sandpaper.

I actually just did a test on a used knife I picked up since the edge was a mess and full of chips etc and the damage done from just three light passes on my Henckels steel was unbelievable. The chips were not as bad as the chunks that it came with but were consistent across the edge.

A definite no no lol.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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