Another beginner searching for a good knife

Goodell... You're in the right place.

 

I was asking almost the same question a year ago and now I'm a knife / sharpening junkie. You'll find the best people in this forum and a lot of good advice.

 

Just remember... A dull Japanese expensive knife is like a walmart junk dull knife. You need to get at least a bit serious on the sharpening stuff or your fancy knife will end like a lame supermarket knife in a matter of weeks.

 

My starters kit was:

 

Mac professional gyuto (Go directly to "chef knife" A.K.A. Gyuto... Santoku is not the way to go if you want to do prep as a professional, it's just too short to make you productive) try 10" blade, looks big and intimidating at first but you'll get used to it very fast...If you find it too big... Ok, go 8".

 

Sharpening stone... My first was an "Oishi" 1000/6000 combo stone that I got from epicurean edge.com for 31 bucks, not the best stone, but good bang for the buck, and if you're a home cook, that stone will be a good way to start. Now I have more stones but I used the Oishi until it crumbled in my restaurant kitchen.

 

Honing rod: Idahone "fine" rod, it was like 28 bucks and I still own it, great piece an a "must have".

 

You can but from chefknivestogo.com, they have an awesome variety of knives that will fit your budget. There is also another great online vendor, japaneseknivesimports.com but it's more "high end" and maybe not the best place if you're just begining or in a budget.

 

With 200 bucks you can get a Mac "superior", a Tojiro DP or a Richmond Artifex gyuto, the Idahone honing rod and a pretty decent combination stone like the king 800/6000

 

For sure with that kit you'll get a good introduction to the professional knives world.

 

Don't take what I say as a gospel, for sure people with more experience than me are going to reply too, I just want to share my two cents with you.

 

Best regards.

Luis

Hi Goodell...

 

Nice to know that you're getting an Artifex, let us know your impressions when you get it, looks like a great knife and Mark si such an standup guy that I don't doubt that the knife is a great piece for the price.

 

For the combo stones... How long they last in a home kitchen?... Maybe years or even a life time, my stone was good at home, but once I took it to the restaurant and got serious use and abuse, it crumbled, but I'm sure that it could last years at my home sharpening 2-3 knives every couple of weeks.

 

My first two separate stones were the Bester 1200 and an Arashiyama 6000, now I have a Suehiro Rika 5000 too. All of them great stones, I really like the 1200 and that one is an absolute must have (something on the 1000-1200 grit is always necessary) and for the polishing, I have the 6000 and the 5000, those one are redundant, you don't need both because there is no much difference on the grit. I like the polished edge that the 6000 gives, it's beautiful and smooth, but the 5000 is also very good and I love the feeling and feedback of that stone.

The bester 1200 and the arashiyama 6000 or suehiro rika 5000 are great stones, you can acomplish great sharpness with them, and maybe in the future you can add another finer stone to give a better polish if you find it necessary... Or you can buy a coarser stone for repairs or thinning your knives.

 

But starting with 2 good stones is a great way to start. Keep reading, there are many guys with more experience than me and you'll find great info in this place.

 

And about the learning curve on sharpening... For me it took years of trial and error... But once I started to listen the people in this forum and watching the videos from cktg and japaneseknifeimports.com, in a matter of weeks I was doing a very good job, once that you understand the process and start sharpening trying to get the feeling and understanding what you're doing, it gets very easy.

 

I use BDL "Burr" method, the vids and the info from him, helped me a ton, and now I can sharpen on a "good enough" level. When I started, I took almost any knife that I could, my mum's, my friend's and my cook's knives, I was trying hard for the first weeks and at some given point I realized that the knives were getting quite sharp.

 

I'm sure that you'll get it very easy and in a short period of time.

Best regards.

Luis

Take a look, BDL is touching the subject and  in much more depth than me, and believe me, he has more experience than yours truly 

 

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/72425/home-cook-looking-for-first-real-knife/30

It depends on how you use it and how often. If you baby your knife it will keep a rather decent edge for a while. If you pound it like a hammer then it will dull quickly. Also it depends on if you can live with 1200 grit max polish.

 

Also for flattening, CKTG sells a cost efficient diamond plate for $25 but they seem to be out of stock for a while.. you can get a DMT extra course but its at $59 and also out of stock, the XXC is $79 and is in stock.

 

I have the Artifex 210mm (two actually) and had them professionally sharpened for the additional $15.. it would get you to a higher level of sharpness so it would take longer before you need to resharpen. But it may also spoil you to the amount of sharpness it can attain, it sure did it to me. 

The artifex comes pretty sharp OOTB but with that $15 pro sharp.. its quite nice.. you should get it just to know what level that knife can be. 

 

You shouldn't have to baby it per se, but you shouldn't rush through cuts and try to impress the next door neighbors by hammering the knife on your board. No cutting on granite, glass, metals, or other hard surfaces. Don't use the edge to move your food (scrape). Mine lasted a good 3-4 months before it needed sharpening.

 

I think the Bester will be good to get a dulling knife back to being useful sharp. It wont repair chips... well technically it can but it will take a long long time to reshape (and wear down the stone at that). 

 

You can use wet/dry sand paper on a flat glass surface... but it will eventually cost you more in the long run. For short term till the $25 ones are back in stock it would be ok. 

 

There is another option that people don't think of which is to send your knife (or knives) out to get sharpened every few months.. costs more and maybe more time.. but you don't have to do the work.

The 5 piece set from CKtG is always recommended here. 135$ I think. Would be better than an 800 and a 6k, 800 is more for fixing chips and reprofiling than anything IMO

 

I'm an ME too.. I noticed you said First knife... then you said future knives.. and you mentioned last thing you need is another obsessive hobby... If your last statement is true.. get out while you still can.. it will only get worse..

 

I started with a Kikuichi TKC, then two Artifex (gave them away as gifts), then Richmond Laser, tried a few Fujiwara FKM parings... Just got a Konosuke HH Ebony, then a Sakai Yusuke White #2, Richmond Laser Suji.. IT ONLY STARTS HERE...

 

I started off with cheap Masahiro stones from amazon... they work but I'm not sure how well they work compared to others but I just ordered a three set of Gesshin stones.. and they are costly..IT DOESN'T END...

 

 

 

In all honesty if you forsee many future knives and you are a control freak as you say you are then I agree with RDM that the CKTG 5 piece set will be what you want. Its a higher initial cost that will keep with you for a long time. 

Hi goodell...

 

Nice to see that you already made a choice... As for some of your questions:

 

Bester 1200 as the "only one stone" is ok for beginning, it gives a "thooty" edge but it cuts fine, the sharpness is not going to last that long as if it were polished by a second higher grit stone but it will be fine, in my professional kitchen I have some knives sharpened to 1200 only for some tasks where the "thooty" feeling is appreciated, and anyway, a 1200 properly sharpened knife is more than the average sharpness of non professional and not "uber-sharp-knife-junkies" like some of us.

 

For flattening the stone...I have no experience with the stone that you're getting, at first I was flattening with sandpaper and I was using one sheet per flattening session, wich translates in a few cents every week, after that by the advice of BDL I started using "drywall screen" and it worked great, now I have a flatening stone, but that's because I do my share of sharpening often and several knives, if it were for my home use only, I could have stayed with the drywall screen for the rest of my life, the box was less than 20 bucks and I think that it can last for a lifetime.

If you can push for getting a polishing stone at first stretching your budget, instead of getting the flattening stone, it will be a good idea.

 

On getting the Artifex, I recommend you to get the extra sharpening by Mark, for two reasons... One: You can see the full potential of the knife (on the process you'll get spoiled  ) and second... The edge is going to last much longer and if you hone it propperly with your Idahone rod...We're talking about a good deal of onions, tomatoes and herbs diced cutted and chopped before you need to get  the knife sharpened, take a read to BDL post on using the honing rod http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=551

 

The most important thing is that you already took a first step on this hobby, don't be afraid of experimenting, get what you can and in the future you will be adding more toys to your collection and you'll be getting more experienced.

 

Congrats and let us know your impressions once you get your stuff.

 

Luis.

 

P.S. Try to get a "wood" cutting board, that is going to help you to protect your knife and the edge is going to last much longer.

From one home cook to another, I've had my (ie: my husband's) JA Henckel's classic set of knives for something like 12 years. It's not Japanese or particularly hip or trendy, but this knife (even when dulled) has always done amazing for me. I don't sharpen myself, but every few years I take them down to a local place and they sharpen all of my knives for a couple dollars a piece. My hubby just uses the tool to straighten the knife (he says teeth) every so often. I also use a really good wood cutting board, a must if you want your knives to last and then baby them. You've gotten a lot of great, more informed responses - just thought I'd share my experience since I basically do the kind of cooking and chopping you mentioned in your original post.

 

I don't see the sharpening option for the 210mm Artifex anymore (you should call/email Mark to find out if it's still possible). But if you look for the 240mm one its only $17. $30 options are the Saya (sheath).  Wood is good.. Bamboo is a bit more tough on blades as requires more glue to hold it together. Only thing to worry about is if you cut at and angle into the board but pull up straight you will ruin your edge. 

 

If you are going into this "hobby" a good stone set is worth the initial investment.

Goodell,

While everyone has given you some good advice about various knife choices, I think you are jumping the gun a bit. You've mentioned that the knife you currently use is dull and that you put all your body weight into chopping carrots, etc. This is extremely dangerous. Your first step is to get your current knife sharp. Take it to a professional sharpener or do it yourself but you should not be spending any money yet. You can learn good knife handling skills with the knife you have if it is sharp. The extreme pressure you are now using to make the knife perform is what causes dull knives to cause more accidents than sharp ones. When the dull knife slips, all that pressure forces the knife to go sideways with great force, typically into your hand. A sharp knife bites into the food, slices through more easily using less pressure, is less tiring, and much safer.

Second, even as a home cook, take the time to learn good knife handling skils and some basic vegetable cuts. Holding the sharp knife properly while using your other hand to hold the food correctly is a basic but very important step. Good knife use may look like no big deal when you see someone do it correctly but it is in fact a series of important small steps done all at the same time. These take time and practice to master but are worth the effort. In-person demos, videos or books are all worth using to help you understand how this is done.

Third, Slow down and enjoy the learning process. The best knife for you to buy is the one you will enjoy using all the time. It may or may not cost alot of money. You can only know what it will be after developing your knife skills a bit first. Good knife handling in all it's aspects is a surprisingly involved activity.  Work slowly to develop good knife skills. These will pay off far more than any amount of money you may spend to buy the knife itself.

Agree, 30 Bucks for a sharpening job is quite expensive. I'll gladly pay 15 but 30 is just too much. I.M.H.O.

 

And a good pointer by chefwriter is about the technique, try to watch videos on that and at first try to julienne and dice carefully everything. I remember long long ago while working for a french chef, and he made me "tourne" pounds and pounds of carrots one day... When I presented the several kilos of carved carrots with sore hands and eyes because of the hours of work... He simply told me "Carrot soup"  all my effort was going to end up in a blender!!... But anyway that kind of practices helped me to reduce the learning curve... So, if you're going to make a vegetable soup, take pride on your cuts, A salad? try to make fine juliennes, ribbons and so on, you'll see that having a good knife properly sharpened is a joy to use... Now I don't have to use it that much, I have an army of cooks and prep cooks and I have to manage the team more than being a line cook... But despite that, several days a week I take at least an hour to do some prep with my Mac or my Konosuke and I tell the people in the dining room to not pass me any phone call... I'm just enjoying myself and that's my very personal moment in the kitchen, even my fellow cooks know that I'm always available do small talk or deal with any situation... But preferably not when I'm working with my knife in my little corner, I enjoy the knife... That much.

 

Get your knife, enjoy it, experiment with it and keep it as sharp as you can... Besides, a cut with a dull knife is always more gory, painfull, ugly, bloodier, more difficult to stitch and messier than one with a very sharp knife.  So... Keep it sharp amigo!

 

Luis

Okay. i'll bite.(pun intended). I don';t know what an artifex is. I do know that If it isn't worth sharpening, it isn't worth using. throw it out. Never, ever work with a dull knife. 

On the other hand, I have several chinese cleavers and other knives purchased for 10 or less, use them constantly and sharpen them all the time. Great value. So I'd sharpen the one you have anyway, use it a bit, then decide.

You should also have a proper place to store the knife. Not just thrown in a drawer. A knife block or magnetic strip.

Cutting boards. Plastic was originally seen as the more sanitary and popularized as such. However, subsequent testing showed that wood boards to be more sanitary as the wood absorbed any water remaning on the surface thereby depriving bacteria of the moist environment they require. Plastic boards retained greater moisture/greater bacterial count. And are tougher on the knife.

I use a Norton Tri-stone I bought years ago. Still works great for me. Sharpening stones and techniques are another area offering alot to learn.

Start with any knife you like, develop your skills with it. Eventually you will find you want one that has a larger/smaller handle, weighs more or less, has a longer or shorter blade, etc. When you find it, that will be the knife you end up using all the time. Of course you may end up like many of us and begin buying multiple knives for the hell of it. It's a fun hobby.

For me, well developed knife skills  have added immeasurably to my enjoyment of the cooking process. And I cut myself less every year.  

Many inexpensive knives can't be meaningfully sharpened to a fine sharp edge because the steel is too coarse and too tough.  However, they can be made to cut more efficiently -- somewhat saw like -- using the sort of inexpensive, carbide sharpener that people buy to keep in their tackle boxes.  Is that what you want to do? 

 

An Artifex is a no BS knife made by Richmond Knives (Mark Richmond of CKtG).  It's made here in the USA by Lamson from an excellent alloy, AEB-L, hardened to its sweet spot.  The knife takes an excellent edge and holds it a long time. The handle is plain but comfortable.  It has no bolster.  The knife and edge geometry are both extremely good.  In terms of form/function it's very much like a Forschner; and even though it costs almost twice as much it's at least as good as a Forschner for value/price -- maybe a better value because it's a much better knife.  

 

While you don't want to store any good knife loose in a drawer, there are other options besides a block or strip; for instance in-drawer knife holders, blade covers, and sayas.  By way of example, my western handled knives are in an in-drawer block, my Japanese handled knives are in sayas in another drawer.  Just protect your knives and your hands -- the method doesn't matter.

 

I'm not sure where I'd put it as an investment priority for someone putting together a good knife kit on a limited budget.  But a wood board is very important.  End-grain wood is the best, long grain a close second. 

 

Shun and Global knives seemed revolutionary when they first entered the US market, but their time has passed.  You can do as good or better for the less money, and much better for the same money. 

 

Wusthof and the other German makers manufacture some very good knives.  However, the trend is away from that style of knife, and for very good reasons.  If you want to talk about the knives and/or the reasons, I'm open; but it sounds like you're already beyond that point. 

 

Identifying how far up the quality ladder you want to climb is as important as identifying your real budget.  There are a lot of good performer, bargain knives, and a lot of more expensive, excellent performers which are good value because they're such excellent performers.  The price range runs from just under $100, to perhaps a bit north of $300.  After that, you're paying for appearance or prestige.  I can't tell you where on the ladder you want to find yourself, no one can.  The best you can get from someone else is enough information about a few knives at a few rungs to make a good decision.    

 

Don't undervalue cosmetics, fit and finish and other "aesthetic considerations." 

 

Wood is not more sanitary than plastic.  There was a study done about twenty years ago which showed that wood was "self-sterilizing," but it's a bad study.  If cleaned appropriately, they're the same.  Otherwise, they're the same.   

 

Bamboo is not wood, it's grass.  Bamboo is hard and springy.  Because the shaved sections of bamboo used to make a board are so narrow the board surface is almost as much glue as bamboo.  The glue is hard and stable.  Bamboo tends to ding knives out of true, and may have some tendency to chip knives which are themselves very hard and brittle.  But we're not talking about those knives.   Bamboo boards are inexpensive, and while you don't want to use one as your primary cutting board they have a place in a well-stocked home.  I'd rate them about the same as "composition" and Sani-Tuff, and better than any plastic. 

 

We can discuss tri-stones if you like, but tri-stones are about oil stones, and the knives you're looking at are much better sharpened on water stones. 

 

A Bester 1200 is a medium/coarse stone.  I've been using one for a few years and -- although it's not perfect -- it's a very good stone.  A "one stone" solution is adequate, but if you're going to sharpen on bench stones I suggest starting with at least two stones.  A 1200# edge is toothy and somewhat fragile.  You want to finish a chef's knife made from a decent alloy with a minimum "medium" stone.  That can be #2000 - #5000, depending on how the maker rates the stones.  For instance, a Gesshin #2000 will sharpen as fine as a Norton #4000.  A very typical high quality/high value pair is the Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika.  I also like the  Naniwa SS 1000 and 3000 10mm stones as a good starter set. 

 

Bench stones are great, but there are other options.  If you can afford one think about an Edge Pro system.  You might also want to explore the possibility of something like a MinoSharp Plus3 or a Chef's Choice Model 316 (electric sharpener). 

 

Miss Meg seems very nice and very sincere.  She also seems to be someone who has accepted using very dull knives without quite realizing that they're very dull.  

 

Hope this helps,

BDL

Edited by boar_d_laze - 11/9/12 at 10:25am

Thanks BDL. Just when I thought I had enough knives, after reading your post, now I think I need a new knife too. And a new sharpening stone. The Lamson factory is about an hour and a half drive from me so I may be heading out this weekend. Oh well, It's only money.

Goodell,

 

The good reasons to favor a 210 over a 240 chef's knife have to do with room in your kitchen or your board.  A 240 is as agile and intuitive as a 210, assuming minimal knife skills (largely your grip).  If you're willing to go through a couple of weeks of paying attention to your grip, AND your board is big enough you might as well get a 240 now. 

 

A wood board is hugely better than plastic.  You don't have to take the board to the sink.  In fact, a wooden board shouldn't go to the sink more than once a year, except if absolutely necessary.  A wood board can be cleaned and sanitized very nicely thank you without ever moving from its place on the counter. 

 

Everything else being equal, end grain wood is better than long grain -- not hugely better, but significantly so.  Is it worth the price difference?  That's more complicated.  I'd rather have a good long grain board than a crummy end grain board. 

 

How big a board can you have?  The largest you can put in your kitchen. 

 

By way of example we have two high quality end grain boards.  One is 2 x 18 x 24 Boardsmith mahogany rectangle, the other is 3 x 18 Boos maple round.  I'm not saying you should go out and buy one but am saying that in my opinion good boards are worth a substantial investment.  Buy the best and biggest you can reasonably afford.  If you really look around the internet you can usually find fairly good deals.  Amazon is a good source.

 

From a very advanced sharpening standpoint -- one which you probably won't appreciate for years if ever -- there's a tension between absolute sharpness and durability.  But, that minor caveat aside, there's no such thing as too sharp.  Knives should be as sharp as they can be made; which as a practical matter depends on the knife itself and on how much effort, time, learning and money you're willing to throw at the task.  Bench stones are not the best solution for everyone, and neither is a high quality tool and jig (like an EP).  For instance, Meg's best option for her Henckels Classics would probably be a three stage Chef's Choice electric. 

 

In your case, it's probably a good idea to examine your sharpening options before diving down the bench stone rabbit hole.  I can't tell you what would work best for you, but only respond to the information you give with information of my own.  The good part is that I have no stake whatsoever in getting you to do what I do or buy what I've bought.   

 

BDL

Edited by boar_d_laze - 11/9/12 at 10:23am

YES!!!

NEVER let anyone 'borrow' them.. even in your own home and wrap the knife in a towel before putting it in the drawer if you don't have a bag for it. The 'knife' drawer is the worst possible spot for them!

 

Happy cooking! So much fun getting your first good knife.. brings back happy memories.

Try korin.com in NYC. I've bought all of my current knives from them. They carry traditional Japanese knives and western style knives. Their Togiharu molybdenum "gyutou" western style knife is a great buy. Korin will also do a complementary initial sharpening for each knife you purchase; this is important because it sets the proper bevel angle for you. You should also research the various metals that they make knives with. Stainless steel is generally preferred, however my preference is carbon steel. The latter requires more care as they will rust and stain however they get wonderfully sharp. Another thing to be aware of is that the Japanese knives have a different edge than your typical western knife. The bevel angle is greater on one side than the other (depending on you left or right handedness).
 

Korin also sells traditional Japanese sharpening stones, they even have a DVD on how to sharpen your knives the Japanese way.