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Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM for home cook (+sharpening stones)

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 

Hi

I have seen this discussed before but please bare with me.

I'm considering the 210mm Gyuto and both models ( Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM ) seem very similar in handle and profile (I usually push cut so the flatter edge suits me) and both seem fairly thin which I like.
Both are in the same price which is about $80 US so no difference from that point of view.
I'm a home cook and both knives will be a major upgrade from anything I have used before (like  Masterclass or Berghoff Df42iviY7pWhj_eI7cg7TDT92qy3zUl-ljjL1vR949xWMDRdo_i_7MxcWiqwRKiHuagF1BdCxNBZs7-wv7MVMX9JISEf9skwmYEj4IUMi76pb8lXFQMqRxmaTQ).

Now the Tojiro uses a "sandwich" of metals having a hard metal in the middle and a softer one at the sides while Fujiwara is a one piece steel.
I've read that the Tojiro edge is kind of brittle if misused (which I don't intend to but..) or even when using a steel rod which is not ultra fine  (I have used the steel a lot with my previous knives) so my question is if the one piece Fujiwara which is slightly softer (HRC rating 58-59 vs 61) has any advantage in being less brittle and more "tolerant".
By the way I use a bamboo board and take great care of my knives and avoid hard surfaces.

What about sharpening, is the single piece better in any way compared to the DP “sandwich”?
Is steel rod a no go for both these knives or they are different in any way?

My sharpening skills are fairly good but I don't use water stones apart from one I have for polishing (edited: it is actually a Belgian blue whetstone, about 5000), I have a couple of DMT diamond "stones"  (Dia-Sharp) 325/600/1200 grit  which I use and I like the guaranteed flatness they have.

Will I be able to use these diamond stones or the Japanese waterstones are a must?
I might even buy a ceramic DMT at some point , (2200 and 8000) , would that work with these knives?

 

Thank you
Alex

 

Updated: here is an image of my steel rod (Masterclass brand), it has microgrooves on it

 

 

Are these garbage rods that damage the knifes?

I have seen similar ones from brands like J.A. Henckels


Edited by alexane - 2/26/13 at 5:42am
post #2 of 63

I have no direct experience with Tojiro, but the idea that Tojiro knives may be brittle probably stems from its use of VG-10 steel.  VG-10's reputation for 'chippiness' seems to come mostly from Shun knives which have experienced some problems.  Whether this is a real problem with Shun's heat-treat of VG-10, or is simply the result of inexperience/misuse in Shun's large user base, who can say for sure?  I have about 12 knives that use VG-10 steel; only one has shown any chippiness.  It's not a Shun but is a Kai-fabricated blade... Kai being the Shun parent company.  The other VG-10 knives, including some other Kai blades, have had no problems, and have been excellent performers.  

 

Re. use of bamboo board: the consensus is that end-grain oriented hardwood boards are best.  Bamboo is suspected of dulling blades more than the better boards, but I don't know if there's any real science on this.  I suspect it matters more that you use sharp knives that require little force, with good cutting technique; that should get you decent edge retention on a bamboo board.  It's mostly board contact that dulls kitchen blades; if your technique is light and smooth your edges are likely to benefit.

 

The Fujiwara and esp. Tojiro knives are hard enough to be getting into the grey area, steeling-wise.  Hard steels may suffer more harm than good from grooved honing steels. You may want to consider using either a polished (completely smooth) steel or a good ceramic/borosilicate rod instead.

 

[I'll leave further sharpening comments to those with greater expertise re. waterstones] 

post #3 of 63

fujiwara fkm (the stainless line) would probably respond better to steeling as they are 58 RC, a tad softer than tojiro DP that's at 60RC. but i wouldn't use a steel if at all. I always true my knives now on my finer stones like my 5k and 8k stones.

post #4 of 63

Unless you have a very specific reason for preferring a 210mm knife, get a 240.  We can discuss this if you have an open mind.

 

As san-mai VG-10 knives go, the Tojiro DP is neither particularly chippy nor is it particularly chip resistant.  For some reason most chips with these sorts of knives seem to happen when the knife is new and before the owner has sharpened it a few times.  So, if you choose a DP, be extra careful when it's new.

 

The DP has -- by any standards -- a large, wide and boxy handle (not quite as boxy or as poorly finished as it used to be, though).  The FKM's handle is pretty typical for a Japanese knife, which is perhaps a little narrow by European standards.  The FKM's handle certainly doesn't get the amount of complaints that the DP does. 

 

Neither knife is notorious for really good or really bad fit and finish, but -- given that there's some variation from knife to knife -- the FKM is likely to be slightly better than the DP in that respect.

 

It's likely but not certain that the FKM will come sharper out of the box. 

 

I feel that the FKM's profile more agile, but that the DP is stiffer.  Despite its stiffness, I don't like the DP's feel, because like all san-mai knives, it feels muted to me.  That's not a majority view of san-mai, but it's not exactly unusual either.  Both knives are reasonably light. 

 

The FKM is a mono-steel knife made from an alloy called AUS-8.  The DP (as already said) is san-mai with soft stainless surrounding a VG-10 core.  As others have pointed out, the FKM is hardened to 58 RCH, the DP to 61; but don't make too much out of the hardening.  The big takeaway is that both alloys are hardened to respectively appropriate numbers. 

 

The DP will take a very slightly better edge than the FKM; but you're probably not a good enough sharpener to make it happen. 

 

You're overlooking a third knife in this price/value/quality class and that's the Richmond Artifex which is more comfortable and made from a better alloy than either of the other two, but doesn't have the same level of visual finish.  As far as my own preferences go, I'd rate the three knives in the following order:  1) Artifex; 2) FKM; and 3) DP, where "1" is best.  That said, they're all very good knives, all a lot of quality for the money, but none of them world-beaters. 

 

All three can be profitably steeled as long as you use an appropriate steel and steel with a soft, light touch.  I don't know your steel, but since good rods are so cheap I suggest replacing it with a really good rod like a HandAmerican "fine." 

 

All three knives sharpen easily and are undemanding when it comes to sharpening equipment.  I don't know how well a Belgian Blue would work with any of the three knives.  I knew someone who used a Blue with a FKM and really liked it, but I'm not sure how much respect his opinion should be accorded.  In my opinion, it's worth a try as a medium or medium/fine stone in a kit which also includes a coarse and a medium/coarse. 

 

DMT diamond stones are NOT good choices for knives of this sort.  A decent set of water stones would be much better. 

 

Bamboo is not wood, it's grass.  There are a few problems with bamboo boards, related to the bamboo itself and how much of the board surface will be glue instead of bamboo.  A good wood board, whether long grain or end grain is significantly easier on your knives than bamboo, or anything else for that matter.  However, besides "wood," the other operative word is "good."  Rubber (i.e., "Sani-Tuff"), bamboo, and even composition are no worse than junk wood boards.

 

BDL

post #5 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveZatYoWa View Post

 

Re. use of bamboo board: the consensus is that end-grain oriented hardwood boards are best.  Bamboo is suspected of dulling blades more than the better boards, but I don't know if there's any real science on this.  I suspect it matters more that you use sharp knives that require little force, with good cutting technique; that should get you decent edge retention on a bamboo board.  It's mostly board contact that dulls kitchen blades; if your technique is light and smooth your edges are likely to benefit.

 

Yes, I have read that about bamboo so I may change it at some point but in general I don't hit the edge to the board , I rather slice things using a cutting motion.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranzB69 View Post

fujiwara fkm (the stainless line) would probably respond better to steeling as they are 58 RC, a tad softer than tojiro DP that's at 60RC. but i wouldn't use a steel if at all. I always true my knives now on my finer stones like my 5k and 8k stones.


ok, that shouldn't be a problem, I can avoid using the steel rod for the Japan knife or get a ceramic rod so I guess we can get this out of the equation.
 

I’m kind of confused about this brittle mentioned in other threads but I’m not sure why I read it for Tojiro DP and not for Fujiwara FKM.
I think that the harder a material the more it can break instead of bend and if this is a case why a 59 metal is not brittle and a 61 is, the difference isn’t that big.
This is why I wonder if the sandwich construction is what causes this problem and maybe it is better to get the single metal knife.

Because of that I also read some recommendation for 20 to 30 degree edge so that the edge lasts more because the 11 or 15 degree don't last much, unless of course this is true for both knives.

I also read that Tojiro DP uses a 50/50 edge while the Fujiwara FKM a 70/30 , I’m not sure what are the advantages of each one (for a right handed person).

Also that because of the sandwich construction of Tojiro the uneven edges don’t work very well.

 

Normally I would expect the harder knife to hold a better edge longer but at the same time this seems be a problem because the knife is more brittle.

 

Alex

post #6 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
The DP has -- by any standards -- a large, wide and boxy handle (not quite as boxy or as poorly finished as it used to be, though).  The FKM's handle is pretty typical for a Japanese knife, which is perhaps a little narrow by European standards.  The FKM's handle certainly doesn't get the amount of complaints that the DP does.

My hands are not very big but on the other hand I have used different knives and never had a problem , I adjust pretty well to different handles.

 

Quote:
You're overlooking a third knife in this price/value/quality class and that's the Richmond Artifex

 

I've read about it in another thread with recommendations but I don't have a source where I can buy from at a good price (when shipping cost is added, I’m located in Greece).

 

Quote:
DMT diamond stones are NOT good choices for knives of this sort.  A decent set of water stones would be much better.

That is very unfortunate, what makes the use of diamond problematic with Japan knives?
I mean if I do the job with the 1200 mesh diamond and then polish with a water stone will these give good results or I have to use waterstones all the way?

 

 

Quote:
I don't know your steel, but since good rods are so cheap I suggest replacing it with a really good rod like a HandAmerican "fine."

As in general , is the microgroove steel rod likely to damage steel knives and should be avoided completely or is this just the case when used with the Japan knives?
The image I have attached in the first post if from my rod and I have to say zoomed in it seems to be quite aggressive and I wonder if I should throw it away because it may be damaging even my cheap knives which have a good edge after sharpening but don't retain it for long (I'm sure that the knife metal is part of that too of course).
I”m sure it is down to the knife metal but the steel rod may be a part of it
 

 

Quote:
As san-mai VG-10 knives go, the Tojiro DP is neither particularly chippy nor is it particularly chip resistant.  For some reason most chips with these sorts of knives seem to happen when the knife is new and before the owner has sharpened it a few times.  So, if you choose a DP, be extra careful when it's new.

I assume this is not related to a change of angle for the edge but comparing an edge with the same angle.

If what I read is correct it is about 11 degree so if at the resharpening it becomes 20 degree it will hold more.

 

 

Quote:
The DP will take a very slightly better edge than the FKM; but you're probably not a good enough sharpener to make it happen.

Probably not...yet.

 

Thank you all for your help

Alex

 

P.S. my posts are moderated so they take a while to appear ans maybe the order will be messed up.


Edited by alexane - 2/26/13 at 1:16pm
post #7 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Unless you have a very specific reason for preferring a 210mm knife, get a 240.  We can discuss this if you have an open mind.

I'm torn about this, I have only owned 8" knives and the length is enough for what I cut at home, I'm not sure if I want my first good knife to be a longer one that may limit it's use.


Edited by alexane - 2/26/13 at 10:58am
post #8 of 63
Thread Starter 
was a duplicate of the previous post
Edited by alexane - 2/26/13 at 11:39am
post #9 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexane View Post

I'm torn about this, I have only owned 8" knives and the length is enough for what I cut at home, I'm not sure if I want my first good knife to be a longer one that may limit it's use.

 

Yes, it can be hard to make the first jump to a longer blade with a good Japanese knife.  I was able to first try a longer blade on a cheaper (but still decent) knife that wasn't too costly. For example, 10" (approx 254mm) Victorinox/Forschner Fibrox knives are widely used in professional kitchens; they cost about $30, are serviceable and can get quite sharp, and are one way to get a feel for a longer lighter-weight blade.  They can usually be found (here, anyway) at most restaurant supply shops.  If you end up getting a better Japanese blade, the Fibrox knife will still be good to have as a backup or loaner.

 

I like the longer knives because they have a longer straight-ish section on back portion of the blade, providing a longer slice for larger items.  If you do any tip-down cutting they act a bit like a longer lever; because they're longer they don't require quite as much vertical lift/motion to get the same effect.  Although I still enjoy using an 210mm knife on occasion (they feel very light and nimble), a 240mm Japanese blade is my current preference for most things.  On a lightweight Japanese knife, the 240mm blade still feels pretty nimble.


Edited by DaveZatYoWa - 2/26/13 at 1:02pm
post #10 of 63

From 210mm to 240mm we're talking a little over an inch in length.  I like 270mm for home use - it's closest to the 10" carbon chef knives I'm used to - forgecraft, lamson, dexter, ect.  Decide if you want to devote the few extra movements to carbon.  If you do you will be well rewarded.  I've been trying stainless clad and mono-steel lately and am very impressed, but they are spendy.  If you commit to learning sharpening then AEB-L with a good heat treat can be a great blade.  Artifex comes to mind - affordable, USA made and a good sharpening primer for under $100 delivered.

 

Hey - you want a nice Forgecraft 10" Wa-conversion let me know - I have a couple I'm ready to part with. 

post #11 of 63

I have a fairly small counter/kitchen space, so I really like using my 8 inch chef knives just fine. FWIW, I use my six inch chef knife a lot too!

 

When I have a larger kitchen, I'll probably start using my 10 inch more often. But currently, I don't use my 10 inch as much as my various 8 inch knives which I have four of. If it was me,  I would maybe borrow a friends and try each size to see what works best.

 

Regards steels, I know some abroad buy from Chefknivestogo.com.  I imagine there are a lot of choices in Greece for steels and what not too. I like my inexpensive ten inch (smooth) round polished steel by F. Dick. Its called F Dick "Packing House" steel. After reading others did this, I sanded my down with 125 grit sandpaper, progressing down to 400 grit, the wet/dry stuff. Some go all the way to 1200 grit, but I'm not sure why...  They are cheap steels, costing around $22 to $25 USD here in the USA. I saw one on amazon the other day for $22 plus shipping. Mine works absolutely great on my Sabatier carbons.

 

So I think you would be smart to find a smooth polished one without the course grooves. Although I am no expert, it is my understanding that the ceramic hones actually abrade the edge a bit whereas the smooth steel will just re-align the edge... so you won't have to sharpen as often. Good luck in your decisions!


Edited by Betowess - 2/26/13 at 5:39pm
post #12 of 63
Thread Starter 

Thank you all for your suggestions.

After some thought I have decided to go for the Fujiwara FKM 210mm (already placed the order) for some reason I think I will be happier with the one piece steel rather than the VG10 "sandwich".
About the size suggestion, although the difference of the 240mm is just about an inch I never felt that my old 8" knives were short for what I do so I'll stay in that size for now.

 

Quote:

After reading others did this, I sanded my down with 125 grit sandpaper, progressing down to 400 grit, the wet/dry stuff.


I haven't thought of that , it is a great idea to smooth any aggressive bumps of the rod although I intend to buy a ceramic version when I can locate one that I like.

Can someone please explain what are the advantages or disadvantaged of a 70/30 edge vs a 50/50 edge? (the knife I ordered says "Double Bevel Edge 70/30")


Also please suggest the recommended angle I should use for sharpening , if the original angle is 11 degree do I work at that angle or go for 15 or 20 degree.
I have read some threads where the suggested sharpening was with the spine just a coin higher that the stone, but that is extremely low like 3-4 degree, for a 44mm height of the blade the 11 degree is about 11mm distance for the spine.

 

I have also started considering a waterstone (a budget two sided one for now), what do you think about http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-whetstone-waterstone-sharpening-stone-Suehiro1000-3000-toishi-sharpener-/221039137761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3376f593e1
I know it is not too big and I read some things against two sided stones but it should be a definite upgrade from the DMT diamond I have.

It is a Suehiro1000/3000 , would I be able to sharpen the knife with it to get good results or the results will be mediocre ?

Thank you

Alex


Edited by alexane - 2/27/13 at 7:23am
post #13 of 63
Thread Starter 

5 hours and still waiting for my moderated post to appear in the thread frown.gif

post #14 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alexane View Post

 

I have also started considering a waterstone (a budget two sided one for now), what do you think about http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-whetstone-waterstone-sharpening-stone-Suehiro1000-3000-toishi-sharpener-/221039137761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3376f593e1

I know it is not too big and I read some things against two sided stones but it should be a definite upgrade from the DMT diamond I have.

It is a Suehiro1000/3000 , would I be able to sharpen the knife with it to get good results or the results will be mediocre ?

Thank you

Alex

 

Can you please advice me on this.

I have searched the forum and found the stones mentioned in a couple of posts, I think they are not considered high quality stones and the grid is overrated but on the other hand I'm at the point where I don't want to spend  $150 to buy expensive ones.

 

The above 1000/3000 stone will cost about $32 , for a similar amount I can get other stones with a single grade (I have searched for 1000 grit unless you suggest something different) which I suppose are of better quality (and usually bigger size too).

 

The question is if a single grid stone like

Japanese waterstone King K-45 #1000 toishi ICE BEAR

{Magic Stone}Sharpening Sharpener Waterstone Whetstone #1000 Japan With Stand

{NIKKEN}Sunstone Sharpening Sharpener Waterstone Whetstone #1000 Made in Japan

 

 

would give better results than the Suehiro combination stone and is so which one of the three.

I'm not looking for perfection, just something that will make my knife purchase (Fujiwara FKM) worthwhile keeping it sharp enough to enjoy it.

 

Thank you

Alex


Edited by alexane - 2/27/13 at 10:57am
post #15 of 63

I'll give it a crack. I think those two (double sided 1000/3000) will be OK, as the Fujiwara should be fairly sharp out of the box. My Edge Pro essential basic set up came with three shapton glass stones which were said to be the most popular... a 500 grit, a 1000 grit, and a polishing 4000 grit. That 1000 of yours should give you some tooth, which should be good for kitchen cutting. All these different stones have different ratings, but my 500 is suppose to be about 30 microns (kind of a lightly course, medium/fine) the 1000 is 14.7 microns (a fine grit), and the 4000 about 3.7 microns which is an extra extra fine (polishing). I know I can cut paper easy with the 500 grit stone...Caveat, I'm a newbie researching all this so I'm no expert.

Hope this helps...

post #16 of 63
IIRC, Suehiro used to sell them in a somewhat different form, as Cerax, in Europe a few years ago. The 1k was pretty soft, chalky and slow, the 3k creamy, not the easiest, both with a great feed back. I prefer harder stones, but these were not bad at all. Small stones are very easy to keep flat, and the relative softness helps in acquiring a good technique.
post #17 of 63
Thread Starter 

I found another double stone which is in a good price , Japanese waterstone whetstone sharpening stone Naniwa #400/1200 and the size is bigger  178mm L x 50mm W x 30mm H (7" L x 2" W x 1.2" H) so this is an option too.

But I don't know how usable the 400 grid is for casual sharpening , I mean maybe it is too aggressive and only useful to change an angle or something.

 

Alex

post #18 of 63

get a king 1k/6k (or somewhere in that range) and you'll be fine with that.

post #19 of 63

FWIW, my brand new Fujiwara was really sharp out of the box, so you won't need to do any profiling. I think starting at a 1K and another polish, like the last poster said, will do you fine. Unless you want to work on some of your current knives. But my FKM seems like it had a 70/30 right hand, and its nice and sharp. Hope this helps...
 

post #20 of 63

lookaround.gif Sorry dbl post.

post #21 of 63
Thread Starter 

Well, I don't intent to start messing with the knife is soon as I receive it but since the DMT diamond sharpeners are not a good match for the Fujiwara knife I want to get a water stone and start getting the feel for it (with my old knives) before I need to use it for the new knife.

The king 1000/6000 is a very good stone but costs about $52 to buy it including shipping so it is kind of high for now.

I'm currently between the
Suehiro1000/3000 $31 130mm x 40mm x 27mm)
 and the
King 1000  $28  (176mm x 52mm x 15mm)

and I lean towards the king 1000 which should be a better "quality" stone (and bigger) and polish the knife (if needed) using my Belgian Blue stone (it is not a big size but will do) which is about 5000 until I buy a proper polishing stone King 6000.

The other option that I was seriously thinking was the Naniwa #400/1200 $38 but I strongly doubt that the brand that the seller mentions is correct because I don't see the Naniwa logo (lobster with a V ) anywhere on the package or stone and I see a "water area" brand, in addition there is no 400/1200 combination model according to the Naniwa website.

Alex

post #22 of 63

3k finish is quite a good level finish for most home use. heck, even 1k is pretty good for many.

 

but when you hit that wall and you know that your knife can get sharper, you'll wanna get that 5-6k.

post #23 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexane View Post

I'm currently between the
Suehiro1000/3000 $31 130mm x 40mm x 27mm)
 and the
King 1000  $28  (176mm x 52mm x 15mm)

and I lean towards the king 1000 which should be a better "quality" stone (and bigger) and polish the knife (if needed) using my Belgian Blue stone (it is not a big size but will do) which is about 5000 until I buy a proper polishing stone King 6000.

Alex

Maybe just get the 1000 grit larger stone for now, and keep using your DMT to polish until you can afford  the 4-6K stone. There is no problem with using a DMT, other than they don't last as long as advertised I believe, after reading a quote from the inventor of the Edge Pro, Ben Dale on a knife forum. His reason being that a knife's steel pulls some of the diamond crystals off each swipe, and the Edge Pro inventor's issue was that for pro sharpeners doing many knifes a day, a DMT wouldn't "last through lunch". And that is worse with the course grit DMTs, so the fine/polishing one will be fine for a while. Just food for thought here...

post #24 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benuser View Post

IIRC, Suehiro used to sell them in a somewhat different form, as Cerax, in Europe a few years ago. The 1k was pretty soft, chalky and slow, the 3k creamy, not the easiest, both with a great feed back. I prefer harder stones, but these were not bad at all. Small stones are very easy to keep flat, and the relative softness helps in acquiring a good technique.


I don't think the linked Suehiro is the same as the Cerax. Suehiro makes lots of stuff. I have a 1K/3K of theirs and although soft and dish pretty hard they are a fine choice at that price point. Let that 3K get real muddy and that should suffice for home use.

 

The 3K leaves a finish along the lines of my Belgian blue.

 

Jim

post #25 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betowess View Post

Maybe just get the 1000 grit larger stone for now, and keep using your DMT to polish until you can afford  the 4-6K stone. There is no problem with using a DMT, other than they don't last as long as advertised I believe, after reading a quote from the inventor of the Edge Pro, Ben Dale on a knife forum. His reason being that a knife's steel pulls some of the diamond crystals off each swipe, and the Edge Pro inventor's issue was that for pro sharpeners doing many knifes a day, a DMT wouldn't "last through lunch". And that is worse with the course grit DMTs, so the fine/polishing one will be fine for a while. Just food for thought here...

 

My DMT will not do for polishing because the ones I have are

  • BLUE (C) Diamond - Coarse

    Quickly sharpen a neglected edge (325 mesh, 45 micron)
  • RED (F) Diamond - Fine

    Put a keen edge on a maintained tool (600 mesh, 25 micron)
  • GREEN (E) Diamond - Extra Fine

    Sharpen to a razor edge (1200 mesh, 9 micron)
 
I'm using them for the home knives so wear will not probably not be a problem because they are used infrequently (maybe every two months ).
 
The one I mentioned for sharpening is a Belgian blue stone which is a water stone of some kind and has a grit of 4000-6000.
 
If the king 1000 is similar to my DMT1200 then it will be fine even as a final stone with no further polish.
Usually too much polish makes the edge loose the grip which I like when cutting things like tomatoes.
 
Alex
post #26 of 63


I agree, the 1000 probably will do you well. However, I my shapton 1000 grit stone is around 15 microns, and a  DMT green is a bit finer at 9 micron. But whatever cuts well, especially for foods like tomatoes. Like I said, I can cut paper pretty easily with a 500 grit.

post #27 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeSavers View Post


I don't think the linked Suehiro is the same as the Cerax. Suehiro makes lots of stuff. I have a 1K/3K of theirs and although soft and dish pretty hard they are a fine choice at that price point. Let that 3K get real muddy and that should suffice for home use.


Jim

I've seen the Cerax 1K/3K , they were sold at a much higher price than the ones I mention (and were bigger size I think).

So the 1K/3K you have is the Cerax and not the pictured Suehiro  (link is post #12 , I don't repost it to avoid any moderation)  ?

 

Alex

post #28 of 63

I bought a kit at Japanese Knife Imports and I believe it is the Suehiro SKG-34 and I don't think it is the Cerax. Jon would know if they were.

 

I like it and may add a Cerax 6K to the rockpile but while Suehiro makes lots of things there are only twos and fews available without ordering from Japan. Tools From Japan has a large selection of Suehiros.

 

Jim
 

post #29 of 63

Not all grit numbering systems are the same.  So tossing around numbers like 400 without identifying the system is more or less meaningless. 

 

Japanese water stones are numbered according to the JIS system.  In that system, 400# is a very coarse grit, should only be used to profile and/or repair, and not for ordinary maintenance. 

 

All combination water stones have at least some drawbacks; but their nature they're something of a compromise compared to regular, non-combination stones.  That's not to say that there aren't plenty of good combination stones out there, and that they don't represent a lot of value. 

 

The best combination stones for beginners have a medium/coarse side (around 1000# JIS) to begin the process of ordinary sharpening, and a medium or medium-fine side (3000# or higher) to finish it. 

 

There is no ideal grit for a kitchen knife.  1000 JIS is good for some things and not so good for others.  A 1000 finish is fairly coarse, which gives it a lot of bite, and some people find that useful for some tasks.  However, bite also translates as micro-serration; and the tiny teeth break very easily with impact (and steeling), so a 1000# will require lots of frequent sharpening. 

 

I think the 3000 - 6000 range is probably right for most chef's knives, but a lot depends on the knife's "scratch hardness."  I polish those of my knives which are hard enough to hold it to 8K JIS on bench stones, or to 1/2u CBN when stropping.  I finish my softer knives (carbon Sabatiers, Forschners, etc.) with a "Surgical Black" Arkansas which would translate to around 4000JIS if there were a valid translation -- but there isn't.  

 

Hope this helps,

BDL

post #30 of 63
Thread Starter 

I read Corin section for the water stones and it say that for the King stones  only the low/medium grids like 1000 or lower should be soaked in water but not the 4000 or 6000 etc (I assumes this is true for others fine grade stones too).

Assuming that this is the case buying a combination king stone 1000/6000 means that I save to soak only half the stone in water and I find it inconvenient so I have decided to buy separate stones.

I'm definitely buying the King K-45 #1000 and as a second stone I think the #6000 will be too refined so I'm towards the KING STONE S-45 Finish grained #4000.
Depending on the combined shipping deal I can get I will either buy the #1000 now and the #4000 later or place an order for both at the same time.

 

Alex

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