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Is Espagnole Sauce dead? - Page 2

post #31 of 51

Great username. biggrin.gif

 

 

 

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordo View Post

Adding pig feet to the demi glace. Now that's an idea. The last time i made glace de viande i had troubles with the gelatinization.


You won't have that problem using pigs feet.  And the meat off of them is quite tasty despite what others state about 'poor people food'.  They don't know squat.

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post #33 of 51

Uhm, I am not particularly versed in the theory of french sauces, but without  going through an espagnole, wouldn't you end up with a jus de veaux lie instead of a demi glace?

post #34 of 51

Veal marrow, like pigs feet, contains lots of gelatin.

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneMachine View Post

Uhm, I am not particularly versed in the theory of french sauces, but without  going through an espagnole, wouldn't you end up with a jus de veaux lie instead of a demi glace?


No becaues you don't have jus lie without a liaison.

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuan View Post


No becaues you don't have jus lie without a liaison.

Or...without jus for that matter! confused.gif

post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post

 

...

 

Tomato Sauce - Used every day in thousands and thousands of professional kitchens maybe not as much in home...

 

Again, we're running up against language and old vs new practice. 

 

The classic sauce tomate, as made by Careme, Escoffier and other chefs of the pre-nouvelle era, wasn't what you seem to think.  Just like sauce Espagnole, it depended on a roux for structure.  In the case of sauce tomate, the roux itself was based on salted pork belly.  I could be wrong, but I don't think many professional kitchens using anything like the classic sauce tomate.

 

It's worth noting that of Escoffier's five mother sauces, four -- bechamel, Espagnole, tomate, and veloute -- depend on a roux for their structure.  Hollandaise, which is an egg-butter liason is the only exception.  Some more modern chefs include mayonnaise, an egg-oil liason, as a sixth mother.

 

By and large, and with the exception of the egg liasons, none of the classic mother sauces are particularly relevant to modern cuisine.   I suppose you could classify ordinary, diner-style gravy as veloute or a veloute daughter, and might make cases for bechamel as "cream sauce" for vegetables and mornay, a bechamel daughter, as the base for Mac and Cheese, but that's not only hyper-technical but kind of pushing the idea of mother/daughter sauces. 

 

When it comes to modern, "fine dining," I don't think you see much roux except in regional cooking and regional variants like "New American Bistro."      

 

The larger point is that the whole idea of the mother/daughter/small/compound sauce sequence is interesting to cooks who like to keep in touch with history, but as a practical matter is pretty much dead.  Requiescat in perigeaux. 

 

When's the last time you had steak Robert or frog legs Parisienne?

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 3/15/13 at 8:06pm
post #38 of 51

From my encounters, I would have to say that espagnole is, at best, on life support system. The last time I made one was probably 30 years ago. In my experience glace di viande (AKA meat glaze) is today's demi.

 

I actually find a lot of humor in the fact that Escoffier when talking about glazes said "Nevertheless, many chefs of the old school do not allow the use of glazes and justify their opposition to their use by suggesting that each culinary operation should be prepared from its proper basic ingredients and produce its own glaze when needed. Certainly the theory is correct when one is not limited in terms of time or expense but, unfortunately, rarely in these days does an establishment apply these theories; indeed, if the use of glazes is made judiciously and without abuse and if they are prepared with great care, one can obtain excellent results from their use and they become of real value in most cases."      The more things change, the more they remain the same.

 

On a side note, I was taught that in culinary matters,a liaison was a mixture of egg yolk and heavy cream used to thicken a sauce; and that hollandaise and mayonnaise were emulsification sauces.

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post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuan View Post


No becaues you don't have jus lie without a liaison.

Uhm, yes. Disregard me.  I think my brain did not work particularly well when I posted after I sampled that Shiraz-Carignan yesterday. :D

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

 

When's the last time you had steak Robert or frog legs Parisienne?

 

BDL

 

Well, I made a Sauce Robert as an intermediate step for a Sauce Charcutiere to go with pork chops last december.

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneMachine View Post

 

Well, I made a Sauce Robert as an intermediate step for a Sauce Charcutiere to go with pork chops last december.

Yeah but did you make it with Espagnole?

post #42 of 51
Thread Starter 

The discussion is whether espagnole is dead and it is in my opinion. No one makes it anymore.

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Thanks,

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post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post

 

On a side note, I was taught that in culinary matters,a liaison was a mixture of egg yolk and heavy cream used to thicken a sauce; and that hollandaise and mayonnaise were emulsification sauces.

 

You are absolutely correct.  I was just being liberal with my words.

post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuan View Post

 

You are absolutely correct.  I was just being liberal with my words.


Being correct is over rated LOL chef.gif. The culinary world has no governing body and therefore runs amuck with opinions on this or that. I only know what I was taught by chefs and madmen and that is a thin line that blurs!

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post #45 of 51

I think the idea - not matter how achieved - is to make the best tasting mouthful with the best mouth feel that one can.  Once I spent the whole day making demiglace for a pate and it could have really used a lot more sparkle as far as visual appeal goes.  Years later when I made my first pigs feet soup outlined by Jane Grigson, that's were I found real sparkle and clarity, with the gelatin generated by pigs feet.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #46 of 51

And may I call all your attention to the book entitled The Medieval Kitchen by Redon, Sabban and Serventi.  Page 188 calls to Meats In Aspic using calves legs and /or feet along with some veal - just an fyi.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuan View Post

Yeah but did you make it with Espagnole?

In this case, actually yes. Usually, no - I occasionally make demi via a proper espagnole, but more often the semi-demi way. The espagnole is somewhat undead in my personal use - a zombie which I occasionally call from the grave to do my bidding. biggrin.gif

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by alamoelle View Post

The best most luxurious demi glace must be made with espagnol as a step. Its in escoffier. While ancient it is classic. Semi demi works but has much less mouth feel and depth.
If you call your sauce demi glace then it better be by the book. Just like all other menu terms.
Demi glace is far from dead. I have made it escoffier style for years. Always superior.

Actually after further reading it seems that Demi-Glace was / can be made from a coulis which Escoffier wanted to avoid as it's even more costly than using Espagnol.

  

It's kind of really funny because what people are doing in the last 30 years or so by skipping Espagnol and the roux by long reduction actually pre-dates Escoffier's version which was an economization, for his time. (still absurdly expensive)

 

I guess it really depends on how classic you want to get (ie. timeframe) - I wonder if heston or myrvold have a demi-glace recipe?

 

----

 


"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

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----

 


"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

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post #49 of 51

I agree but find me guys in every kitchen that can make it  correctly?

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post #50 of 51

I make espangole (last Tuesday it was sauce robert to go with roasted pork), but it fits into my situation. Brown roux is a neat thing and I keep oven browned flour on my prep list.

 

I also make made a tomato sauce with roux (half way between a blonde and full brown) last week to go with a meat loaf. It was very popular.

 

My problem is that I don't really have the space, budget, or man hours, to do stocks properly. What I can't get from poached poultry or deglazing, I have to get from bases. Then again, it's not like I'm running a 3 star operation either.

post #51 of 51

Oh wow so we have two people, Genemachine and Tincook.  Maybe not so dead after all. 

 

Good job, now I feel like making some myself.

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