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Chinese cleaver and sharpening

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
Hey all, I currently use a Mac Pro and chef choice trizor for 90 percent of my work in the kitchen. I love the Mac and the chefs choice does an adequate job of sharpening. Lately I've found my self interested in Chinese cleavers, not that I need one as I'm only a home cook. I've also been curious about carbon and thinking about trying my hand at waterstones. I guess my question is on 2 topics

1. Anyone know much about this knife http://www.chefknivestogo.com/cckcleaver2.html
2. If I were looking to get some beginner stones would the same ones fly for the cleaver and my Mac? Suggestions?

Thanks for any help
post #2 of 11

1- I LOVE the CCK cleaver. Cuts great, feels good in hand, gets sharp easy. 

2- I use the three-stone set from Chef Knives to Go with the Beston/Bester/Rika stones. The same stones should work fine for both the Mac and the CCK. Mac knives are Rockwell 60; CCK are around Rockwell 58-60. No big difference.

post #3 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverVeggieNut View Post

1- I LOVE the CCK cleaver. Cuts great, feels good in hand, gets sharp easy. 

2- I use the three-stone set from Chef Knives to Go with the Beston/Bester/Rika stones. The same stones should work fine for both the Mac and the CCK. Mac knives are Rockwell 60; CCK are around Rockwell 58-60. No big difference.

+1 and I'll state what many will call heresy: A 1000 or 1200 grit stone plus a stone flattener is all you really need to keep any knife super sharp. The DMT XXX (or similar) flattener also takes on the role of re-profiling a very dull knife or to "thin behind the edge" to increase performance on a new knife. Any higher grit stones begin to polish the edge ala a straight razor and you will loose the toothy edge that is usually desirable for cutting food. This has been my experience..of course your mileage may vary :D.

post #4 of 11

Exactly. I have lots of stones but i sharpen my cleavers with just one: a #1200 Bester or, while traveling, A #1000 Glass Stone.

Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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post #5 of 11
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the response. Sounds like the cleaver is a no brainier for such a low price. Looking forward to trying something totally new. One more question, will a regular 10 in blade guard work for storage or is it worth purchasing the saga?
post #6 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismit View Post

Thanks for the response. Sounds like the cleaver is a no brainier for such a low price. Looking forward to trying something totally new. One more question, will a regular 10 in blade guard work for storage or is it worth purchasing the saga?


While a regular plastic guard would work to protect the edge from impact harm but not moisture. I have used a felt lined guard on a carbon steel cleaver and got rust spots and switched to a bare plastic one.

 

The felt lined ones can trap moisture left on the blade or condensation from drastic temp changes and lead to rusting.

 

Jim

post #7 of 11

I'll state what many will call heresy: A 1000 or 1200 grit stone plus a stone flattener is all you really need to keep any knife super sharp. The DMT XXX (or similar) flattener also takes on the role of re-profiling a very dull knife or to "thin behind the edge" to increase performance on a new knife. Any higher grit stones begin to polish the edge ala a straight razor and you will loose the toothy edge that is usually desirable for cutting food. This has been my experience..of course your mileage may vary

 

My mileage varies. 

 

If a polished edge won't perform ordinary kitchen tasks as well as a toothy edge, the problem is usually the sharpener and not the stones.  A properly sharpened, well polished edge will effortlessly fall through onions, glide through tomatoes, etc., far better than a toothy edge -- especially one as toothy as a medium/coarse 1K or 1.2K stone. 

 

The principal reasons for choosing a medium grit level (like 2K - 3K, e.g.,) as opposed to a fine (4K - 6K) or ultra-fine (8K and up) finish usually have more to do with the ability of the knife to take and hold polish than cutting food. 

 

Sharpening choices often represent a tension between durability and what I call perceived sharpness, which is the sharpness the user experiences as opposed to objective measurements like the width of the edge.  There's a limit -- imposed by the "scratch hardness" of the knife and the type of work its put to do -- on how much polish the knife can take and how long it can hold it.

 

BDL

 

PS.  Don't take grit numbers too seriously.  Even within a given classification system (we're all using JIS here, I think) performance can vary so much that if you're not talking very generally it's usually a good idea to refer to specific stones rather than assume that the grit numbers are more than a rough guide. 

post #8 of 11

I haven't used the saya CKTG sells for the CCK. For my CCK, I just made a saya out of box cardboard. I use it when I take the knife somewhere. Otherwise, the cleaver just stays in a drawer that I've lined with rubber grippy stuff. If I had wall space for it, I'd store it on a wall magnet. Not sure how the blade guard would do; I'm imagining not so well...

post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

My mileage varies. 

 

If a polished edge won't perform ordinary kitchen tasks as well as a toothy edge, the problem is usually the sharpener and not the stones.  A properly sharpened, well polished edge will effortlessly fall through onions, glide through tomatoes, etc., far better than a toothy edge -- especially one as toothy as a medium/coarse 1K or 1.2K stone. 

 

The principal reasons for choosing a medium grit level (like 2K - 3K, e.g.,) as opposed to a fine (4K - 6K) or ultra-fine (8K and up) finish usually have more to do with the ability of the knife to take and hold polish than cutting food. 

 

Sharpening choices often represent a tension between durability and what I call perceived sharpness, which is the sharpness the user experiences as opposed to objective measurements like the width of the edge.  There's a limit -- imposed by the "scratch hardness" of the knife and the type of work its put to do -- on how much polish the knife can take and how long it can hold it.

 

BDL

 

PS.  Don't take grit numbers too seriously.  Even within a given classification system (we're all using JIS here, I think) performance can vary so much that if you're not talking very generally it's usually a good idea to refer to specific stones rather than assume that the grit numbers are more than a rough guide. 

 

BDL, for the final polish level what steel characteristic do you think determine that (grain structure and hardness come to mind)? 

post #10 of 11

You can go very, very fine with many knives.  The question is really how fine can you go without wasting a lot of effort.

 

People talk a lot about hardness, but don't understand that (a) of the three kinds at all relevant to knives (scratch, impact, and indentation), indentation hardness is only a metaphor for scratch and impact hardness; and (b) that Rockwell hardness is a fairly inaccurate way of measuring indentation hardness.  So, at best, the hardness number which you associate with a knife isn't a true measure of how well it will hold a polish, but only a platform for guesstimation.  Experience is a much, much better guide.   

 

How well the knife will hold a given polish is also determined by how the knife is used. 

 

The first two things to look at are how well the knife will take and hold a polish. 

 

I frequently go past the point of worthwhile work because I like screwing around with knives, have the equipment, and am scared my inner voice of disapproval will call me lazy if I don't go at least one step further than necessary (or sane). 

 

When I'm keeping it sane, I sharpen my European made knives -- which includes all my meat and heavy duty knives as well as my French carbons -- on oil stones, and take them to a "Black Arkansas" polish (that's the rough equivalent of a 4 - 5K JIS finish).  

 

When sharpening my Konosuke HDs and my 52100 Ultimatum on water stones, I take them up to a Gesshin 8K.  When I sharpen or tune them on strops, I sometimes stop at 1u (which is as far as useful goes), but sometimes go even finer because stropping a polish is so easy and because I'm nuts.    

 

I also have a Konosuke HH petty which can take a pretty good polish, but gets such hard use -- including being used as a boning knife -- it won't hold it.  I sharpen that to a 3K Chocera.   

 

Is that the sort of stuff you wanted to know?

 

BDL

post #11 of 11

Pretty much. Thank you!

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