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3:2:1 I did it I DID IT I DID IT

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

Following the recipe to the letter for pate brisee in the Time-Life book on Provincal Cooking, I've achieved Nirvana.  A crunchy butter flavored crust that's flakey even at the bottom of the quiche no matter its diameter.  This is truly heaven.  Just follow the recipe exactly and you might need to place the tarte/quich pan in the upper third of the oven for better browning.

 

Three decades ago I tried making crusts using books but without internet and international feedback and became frustrated - even though I was living in the Berkeley gourmet ghetto at the time NOONE, not any of the vendors,  gave me advice at the time and so I got frustrated.  Three decades later, Nirvana with all of the help I received here.

 

The 9 incher turned out just okay but the 6 incher was outta' this world probably because it was rolled out a bit thinner.  I mean, a real crunch biting thru the thickest part of the pie.

 

Aaaahhhhh, tears after all of this time.  It took me decades to get it right.


Edited by kokopuffs - 3/29/13 at 2:22pm

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post #2 of 25

Congratulations!

post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 

It couldn't have been the tin plated tarte pan versus Fat Daddio's pan.  Rather, it was the  sheet of aluminum foil packed into the dough.

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post #4 of 25

What do you mean, aluminum foil "packed into the dough?" Did you line the pan with it or line the unbaked crust with it?

 

I'm confused.

 

That Time-Life book is edited by Richard Olney, isn't it? He's got a couple of French cookbooks of his own that I've never seen but am interested in.

post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 

buttered foil gently pushed against the dough to prevent the sides from dropping.

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post #6 of 25

I may have posted this elsewhere, but here it is again.

 

For par baked or fully baked pie or tart crusts, I line the dough with buttered foil, then dock the crust with a dinner fork, then fill the foil lined shell with dried beans, raw rice, or pie weights (http://www.kitchenspice.com/tastefultimes/tarts_tartlets.htm ,and scroll down).

 

Then bake for about 8-10 minutes, remove the foil and weights, brush with egg wash to seal, return to oven and bake to desired doneness.
 

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post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

I may have posted this elsewhere, but here it is again......

Pete, yes, and your method is the one that's detailed in the Time-Life book.  I used it because I figured that if the 'filling' that I think you mentioned was something to rave about, probably the crust is too.

 

The dough ingredients:

 

1 1/2C AP flour  (6 oz)

4TBS Unsalted Butter (3 oz)

2TBS Lard (1 oz)   ...and therefore 4 oz fat total including the butter

3-5 TBS Water (2 oz)

 

And therefore there's your 3:2:1 proportion

 

OBSERVATIONS AND QUESTIONS FOLLOW

 

1.  And it turns out that I had not been working the fat into the flour sufficiently.  It seems that the fat /flour mixture should be worked into "flakes" that are paper-thin and it's at that point that water is added.  The dough, lightly floured and wrapped into a ball as specified in the recipe, rested in the fridge for three hours prior to rolling out.  And once it lined the tarte pan, it was allow to rest for another hour in the fridge prior to baking.

2.  Previously I had rolled out the dough thicker than 1/8 inch and that extra thickness could have affected crunchiness in the final product.  From now on the dough will, indeed, be rolled out to 1/8 or maybe slightly thinner.  It seems to me that a thicker crust prevents it from cooking properly thru and thru.

 

3.  Also, Pete, which kind of rolling pin do you use: ball bearing, dowel or tapered (french)?

 

4.  Following the Time-Life recipe, the dough is chilled for three hours and then removed from the fridge and allowed a five minute warm-up prior to rolling out.  What's happening here is that upon rolling out the dough, it splits at the periphery and I'm wondering if the dough needs more warm-up time to become more supple and not split?????   ....perhaps chilled in the cellar at 55F as opposed to the typical fridge with a temperature around 35F, that might be the problem, here.


Edited by kokopuffs - 3/30/13 at 11:08am

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post #8 of 25

I use a French pin.

 

Edge splits are not uncommon, just squeeze them together or patch. I find less splits when I'm careful to roll from the center out. This also helps prevent the outer edges from becoming thinner than the center.

 

I do not chill the dough in a ball shape, I prefer a disk, probably 3/4"-1" thick. When I take it out of the refrigerator, I use Julia's trick, I beat it with the pin to soften it as well as show it who's boss wink.gif, this starts the flattening process and seems to loosen the dough up without letting it get too warm. I probably beat it down to, maybe, 1/2" thick or slightly less, then commence rolling.

 

I always roll pastry dough on my pastry cloth as I have better luck and the dough doesn't stick nor slide around
 

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post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

 

I do not chill the dough in a ball shape, I prefer a disk, probably 3/4"-1" thick. When I take it out of the refrigerator, I use Julia's trick, I beat it with the pin to soften it as well as show it who's boss wink.gif, this starts the flattening process and seems to loosen the dough up without letting it get too warm. I probably beat it down to, maybe, 1/2" thick or slightly less, then commence rolling.

 

Prior to beating the disk, for how much time do you let it 'warm up' out of the fridge?

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post #10 of 25

Not long, I generally unwrap it and start beating lol.gif. I like to keep the dough as cold as possible, I'd rather patch the cracks or splits while it is cold rather than let it warm up to the point they do not occur.

 

Remember, I'm a savory cook, not a pastry cook!
 

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post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 

Today I made two more quiches using the exact same ingredients and proportions but cooked differently.  Both were lined with butted coated foil, baked at 400 F for 10 minutes.  Removed from the oven and the foil was removed and the crust pricked again.  EDIT: It's then brushed with beaten egg white and thenbaked for another 3-5 minutes and removed from the oven and allowed to cool.  They're then filled.

 

  1. One quiche was filled and baked in your typical tarte pan (tin lined) and finished at 375 F for 30 minutes.  Soggy bottom.
  2. The other quiche was filled and baked in an aluminum tarte pan made by Fat Daddios.  It finished baking at 400 F for 30 minutes.  Overall the crust was much browner and the bottom was crispy.

 

What accounts for this, the difference in pans or the difference in temperatures?  Both?  Something tells me that the Fat Daddios pans have a much better heat transfer.


Edited by kokopuffs - 3/30/13 at 4:06pm

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post #12 of 25

Ah, one difference in your method and mine.

 

After cooking the crust for ten minutes, I remove the foil, and weights if any, brush with egg wash to seal, and bake for an additional 8-10 minutes until GBD (Golden Brown & Delicious), THEN I add the filling for the quiche!
 

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post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 

I do that also and sorry for the omission.  I'll reedit my post for clarity.  And please reread that post once I edit it.

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post #14 of 25
Thread Starter 

And maybe that's what I need to do: with the foil removed the crusts should be baked 'naked' for at least 10 minutes or so, prior to cooling and filling and final bake.

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-T

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post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post

And maybe that's what I need to do: with the foil removed the crusts should be baked 'naked' for at least 10 minutes or so, prior to cooling and filling and final bake.

That is what I do, it may not be right, but it works!

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post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

That is what I do, it may not be right, but it works!


There's no right or wrong, rather, it's adaptation to reach the desired goal.

 

What I've noticed across all the decades that I've tried baking is that these recipes are/were written for gas ovens where the heat is moist and transfers easily.  Better conduction than dry heat.  Electric ovens produce a dry heat and the heat transfers poorly unless the oven chamber is a smaller capacity.  And in my electric oven I need to raise the temperature and cooking time to get the same outcome as when I used a gas oven.

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post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

I use a French pin.

 

Edge splits are not uncommon, just squeeze them together or patch. I find less splits when I'm careful to roll from the center out. This also helps prevent the outer edges from becoming thinner than the center.

 

I do not chill the dough in a ball shape, I prefer a disk, probably 3/4"-1" thick. When I take it out of the refrigerator, I use Julia's trick, I beat it with the pin to soften it as well as show it who's boss wink.gif, this starts the flattening process and seems to loosen the dough up without letting it get too warm. I probably beat it down to, maybe, 1/2" thick or slightly less, then commence rolling.

 

I always roll pastry dough on my pastry cloth as I have better luck and the dough doesn't stick nor slide around
 

I use this recipe all the time, from the time life, and over the years i've reduced the time of making the whole tart, crust, filling and topping, from pretty much a whole day to about two hours, start to finish, with a little waiting time in between.  One thing i noticed is that refrigerating the dough is a waste of time.  I just work fast,. I only refrigerate when it's 100 degrees in my kitchen.  Maybe, sometimes.  If you cool it first, you have to wait two hours or more for it to get cold, even if it';s flattened into a disk, and then another half hour of waiting and beating.  And in the end, you have it pretty much just the way it was when i made it.  Does that make sense?  I don;t bother cooling it.  I never had a problem.  But i do make the butter-flour flakey base really quickly. 

 

I learned with a floured board, and can still do that, but it's less messy just using two sheets of parchment paper and dusting the disk with flour

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

Not long, I generally unwrap it and start beating lol.gif. I like to keep the dough as cold as possible, I'd rather patch the cracks or splits while it is cold rather than let it warm up to the point they do not occur.

 

Remember, I'm a savory cook, not a pastry cook!
 

The cracks can be almost completely eliminated if you make your disk thicker around the edges than in the middle.  The reason it cracks is that there isn't enough dough around the edges to flatten and also fill in the wider diameter. 

Then i follow the way of rolling from center to one inch from the edge, then turning a sixth of a turn, and doing it again, center to inch from edge.  Works perfectly.  The cracks are also diminished when the dough is NOT refrigerated. 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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post #18 of 25

I cheat. I keep a half sheet pan in the freezer, I cool the dough, when needed, by slipping it into the freezer, on the half sheet, for 15-30 minutes, to firm up.
 

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post #19 of 25
Thread Starter 

I figured that once the cold water has been added to the mixture and the dough made into a ball, a rest period might be required in order to relax the dough to facilitate rolling out.  And yes, these quiches involve about an 1 1/2 hour of work, let's say, spread out over the whole day using the TL books instructions to the letter.  It's okay to cheat, however!

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post #20 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by siduri View Post

...The cracks can be almost completely eliminated if you make your disk thicker around the edges than in the middle.  The reason it cracks is that there isn't enough dough around the edges to flatten and also fill in the wider diameter. 

Then i follow the way of rolling from center to one inch from the edge, then turning a sixth of a turn, and doing it again, center to inch from edge.  Works perfectly.  The cracks are also diminished when the dough is NOT refrigerated. 

 

Siduri:  which kind of rolling pin are you using?

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post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post

 

Siduri:  which kind of rolling pin are you using?


You won't believe it.  Years ago, over 40, anyway, my father was doing plumbing in the house with the new pvc pipes.  He had a length leftover and thought it would be a nice rolling pin.  He sanded the two ends so they were smooth and i still use it.  Put it in the dishwasher, etc.  It's got a nice wide diameter, and is comfortable under the hands. 

 

as for resting, i don;t usually find it necessary.  I don;t work it with the water, i just toss it. 

 

For the time, i meant the time to make the complicated strawberry tarte - with bavaian cream, strawberries and redcurrant jam.  The quiche gets in the oven in much less than an hour and a half. 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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post #22 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by siduri View Post

...as for resting, i don;t usually find it necessary.  I don;t work it with the water, i just toss it...

 

Please explain "...I just toss it..."

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

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post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post

 

Please explain "...I just toss it..."

 

Sure, kokopuffs.  I have all the crumbly flour with butter rubbed into it.  It's like a pile of oatmeal.  I throw in the water,  trying to get it all over, not just in one spot, and with my hands, i lift and drop, lift and drop, sort of how you'd toss a salad if you used your hands.  Only when the whole mass seems slightly wet do i try to press it into a ball.  Then i try to break the ball - if it crumbles up, i break it all down and toss a little more water in it.  Then i try to make a ball again.  If it breaks clean in two pieces,w ithout a lot of crumbling, i flatten it and start rolling, always leaving a thicker edge than center, to keep it from opening up as i roll it.  Little movement, little production of gluten, no need to rest.  Anything to save time.  I'm not a person with a lot of patience, and i usually decide to make a quiche or a tarte at the last minute possible. 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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post #24 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by siduri View Post...Then i try to make a ball again.  If it breaks clean in two pieces,w ithout a lot of crumbling, i flatten it and start rolling, always leaving a thicker edge than center, to keep it from opening up as i roll it.  Little movement, little production of gluten, no need to rest.  Anything to save time.  I'm not a person with a lot of patience, and i usually decide to make a quiche or a tarte at the last minute possible. 

 

Did that and what it took with the White Lily Bread Flour that I'm using is an extra TBS of water:  The result:   no more splitting at the periphery.  And I took a hint from the APR/MAY issue of FINE COOKING magazine:  I lined the shell with crumpled parchement paper with pie weights.  No sticking and no shrinkage.  AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edited by kokopuffs - 4/23/13 at 7:37pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 

And as stated in FINE COOKING, I baked the shells in the upper third of the oven since that is the benefit of electrical ovens.  Gas fired ones cook differently.


Edited by kokopuffs - 4/23/13 at 2:40pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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