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bread does not rise in oven - Page 2

post #31 of 47

That looks pretty good from the photo's. When you say that it's spongy, do you mean that it's dense or that it's wet? This is just a REALLY basic recipe to get you started, now you can build on it. You can mess around with hydration levels, proofing times and temperatures, extra ingredients, the list goes on. I tend to make my longer prove as the second one, so I'd give it an hour first and then a generous hour after shaping. That's just my experience though, and I'm sure others would swear by their own particular methods.

 

To let you know about hydration levels (I wasn't sure if you understood them from your above post):

 

The water content of a dough vs the flour content (by weight) is the hydration level. So 250g flour and 250g water would be 100% hydration, 250g flour and 125g water would be 50% hydration and so on. A lot of breads are in the 50 - 60% hydration level. I myself haven't had any real success working above 80%. At this wet consistency you cannot knead the bread, you have to allow the glutens to develop naturally and the fold the bread on itself until it comes together. The downside is that you usually need to use flour to stop your stodge from sticking to things, thus lowering the level of hydration. A wet dough will be fragile with lots of large holes in the crumb, as opposed to a robust, drier dough which will be much more uniform.

 

The main thing to remember with bread is that, although recipes are specific, they are not chemistry. If you have an extra 5g of flour in a 500g loaf, it will not stop it becoming bread. You actually have a lot of leeway if you remember that:

 

1) salt kills yeast, so don't oversalt or add the salt directly to the yeast

2) yeast needs time to work its magic - it goes like this: first stage - just starting, the yeast is yawning and stretching, ready for a day at work. Second stage - the yeast gets up, gets its breakfast together (spreading through the dough) and sits down to eat. Third stage (blue smartie and coke stage) - the yeast goes mental at how much food it has and balloons. Fourth stage - the yeast is full, there's only dregs left on the table. It lays down, nibbling at a few morsels. You want to bake just before the fourth stage, when the yeast is just getting to the expanding-pants stage! (Hope my little anecdote is amusing and useful!).

 

If you remember those two rules then you should be fairly set for developing your own bread in the way you like by experimenting.

post #32 of 47

There reason you're getting that tight, cake-like crumb is that you're collapsing the open structure created during the rise by the way you handle the raw dough. 

 

90% of your problem is formation.  You lack "touch," don't know how to form a loaf of bread by hand yet, and you're killing the bread's final texture when you try.  In essence, you're trying to run before you've learned how to walk. 

 

If you want early success, start by baking in pans or at least using some sort of form -- like a banneton -- to shape your loaves.  If you want to try, I'll help you.  If you want to try something even easier and more idiot-proof, go "no-knead," and bake in a covered vessel.  There are people here who will help you with it.  

 

Yes, there are many other problems with your technique, but they're to be expected.  Lets get some success before delving into the fine points. 

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 8/4/13 at 8:11am
post #33 of 47

Earlier I cited 420 grams of flour.  Sorry for the mistake and I contacted StuartScholes personally.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #34 of 47

All those darn inconsistencies in cup sizes eh?! Lol.

post #35 of 47

By law here in the U.S., the size of a one cup measure can vary as much as 10 or 15% and for that reason alone is why weight is the preferred measurement of bakers.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #36 of 47

Hydration aside, I want to second Stuart's remarks on kneading.  

 

You're imposing a huge constraint on your ability to make good bread by avoiding kneading entirely, especially if the only mixing is with a food processor. 

 

I would start either here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/lessons or with one of Peter Reinhart's books.  Even though I've been making bread for decades, I've learned a lot in the last year by doing exactly what Reinhart told me to do, step by step.

 

I understand the attraction of the Mark Bittman recipe, because it holds out the prospect of getting good results with almost no work, but I think to make it successfully, picking up on B de L's point, you already have to know a lot about handling and texture.

post #37 of 47
Thread Starter 
Morning to you all

First the bread was indeed very firm rather than a real cake crumb

I take on board all comments made Stuart and I appreciate the recipe was a starting point from you. I fully think my rise times were out of kilta.

Colin, I will put the processor to one side. I don't want to go no knead as that seems to defeat the point of baking to me. I used the processor thinking it would reduce the kneading and it was a recipe for processing.

Koko, whatever the cup size I have learnt from this thread, and your input with others, to weigh Everything.

Thanks BDL for your comments also and yes I would appreciate guidance.

I do have a small banneton but stayed clear of it till I got a few loaves under belt. I know running before walking. Talking of which.....

I did make up a poolish last night.
I have a recipe needing one.
Flour 100%
H2o 65%
Salt 2%
Yeast o.5 %

Poolish was a 30%

Flour 150 g
H2o. 150g
Scant pinch of instat dried yeast

This moring nice smell and surface bubbles

I mixed salt 10g into rest of water 175g broke up poolish.
Mixed in rest of flour 350g with one tsp of instant dried yeast.

Hand mixed and kneaded for 10 mins. Lovely silky dough.
Put in oiled metal. Bowl and covered with cling film.

Currently rising.

This I calculated a bread with 65% hydration.

I also intend to repeat your recipe Stuart.

My wife thinks I'm mad but I know I am....

Oh by the way have ordered books from library too B d'L included.

.......................
post #38 of 47

See, you're getting into the idea now. :) Thefreshloaf is a valuable source of information, I too learned a LOT from there (their stuff on sourdoughs is particularly interesting - to me).

 

Just to note, I don't think (I may be wrong) that any of the other ingredients are generally expressed as percentages. I always work (in my head) with the water quantity as a percentage and the rest as grams. I say this to save you having to calculate out salt and yeast levels etc. Also, when working with yeast the amount to add is not linear - you don't add 30 grams of yeast to a kilo of flour just because you add 15 grams to 500 grams. Confusing I know, but it's because of the way the yeast grows, but you'll come across that in more depth later I'm sure.

 

Regarding your hydration, you're starting to get the hang of it I think, but unless I misunderstood your recipe I think you may have miscalculated a little. Let me run you through how I understand it:

 

Poolish:

150g flour and water (100% hydration)

 

Main dough:

350g flour and 228g water (65% hydration)

175g poolish (which at 100% hydration means 88g flour and water)

 

Total in loaf (not taking into account any flour absorbed through the kneading process if you kneaded on flour): 437g flour and 315g water (something like 72% hydration).

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Please post pictures, I'd like to see how your bread turns out again, I love the long breads that take several hours or even days to come to fruition - I just find it exciting to keep checking in (I use cling film as I said before) and seeing how things are turning out, there's really nothing like seeing evidence of rising bread dough IMO.

post #39 of 47
Thread Starter 
Hi Stuart

Bit confused with hydration, these were my thoughts
;
For a total flour 500g I used total water 325g

Made a 30% poolish which I took as 30% of total flour being 150g with 150g of the water.

When I mixed all together it was the poolish with 350g of flour and 175g of water

Not 175g of poolish.

That gave me 65%, got to get that straight in my mind as hydration is obviously a keystone in the whole process.

My results today......

I usually use two tsp yeast in a loaf but only used one tsp as I thought the poolish would have introduced yeast from its development.

The dough took 3 hours to start kicking in for first rise! After 4 hours I turned out and formed my loaf gently patting the dough into long rectangle,
. I then folded the ends in and over a little. Brought one long side of rectangle to middle and folded the opposite side over to the other edge. Read about this method .

The resulting loaf sat for 40 mins and I kept eye on finger test..dared myself to slash the top and in oven 240c with iron pan on floor which I poured boiling water into before I closed door.

The baked loaf has great crust. Tastes wonderfull from the poolish though is firmer than I wanted. Even so it is soft and eats quite well.

Have decided to play with this recipe for awhile rather than go from one to other each day.

I will try less salt a fraction and increase yeast to 2tsp. What do you think?

One thing to mention. I was surprised that the dough was not as sloppy as I thought it would be, another area to adjust me thinks another time.

Here are the photos

Will start a poolish tonight.

Cheers and thanks again. I am so pleased to have found this site, my thinking towards baking bread has already been hightened and so much to learn.

........


post #40 of 47

Looks pretty good. You're right about the hydration then, I misunderstood your previous recipe post. I think this is a good recipe to work on if you're happy with the taste - that's the important thing, now you can work on perfecting the texture.

 

Your salt level will be dictated by how salty you want the bread. If it was too salty then reduce it and vice versa. Regarding increasing the yeast, I'd usually use 15g yeast for a 500g loaf, so your method seems on the low side, maybe that's why your rise is taking longer than mine typically would. Not an issue though, you work out how you want to get your results for yourself.

 

If I recall, you are using an Aga, which I assume give you less control over heat (never cooked with one myself). I usually put my oven to max (around 230) for at least half an hour before putting in, placing a ceramic roasting dish in the bottom. Then I add boiling water to this a couple of minutes before putting the loaf in. After cooking for a short time, maybe as short as 5 minutes sometimes, I reduce the oven temperature to around 180 instead and continue the cooking. This stops the crust from drying too much and becoming too thick. If you find your crust is too hard, you can wrap your loaf in a damp (not wet) tea towel, bake for a few minutes and remove from the oven, leaving to stand. This should soften it a little.

 

Your slashes came out pretty good. :) It looks nice, certainly better than my first loaves. I remember taking them out of the oven and they were HEAVY. You could nearly build a house with them! Lol.

post #41 of 47
Thread Starter 
As far as the aga is concerned you are right that I don't have much control over temp. I have temp in middle at 230/240c by my hang in thermometer. One thing I can do ( not tried yet ) is place the cold aga baking sheet in top slots. The sheet is full width of oven and can be used to deflect heat from top surface of oven. Aga baking is quite different than straight or fan forced.

The crust is something I am looking for as its the crusty french/italian breads I would like to get to as we love that type of bread.

At least I am now getting the oven rise I could not achieve.

I'll try some variations with recipe .....
post #42 of 47

That's it, you're getting the mindset now. Keep us posted. peace.gif

post #43 of 47
Thread Starter 
Its only been a week since I started this thread. Thanks to you I have learnt an enormous amount. I have also put my head into many books from the library, used 6 kg of flour and driven my wife crazy.

I have however today achied a bread worth all the effort. I have taught myself the stretch and fold aswell as forming good dough balls.

Anyway for what its worth here are my bakers notes explaing what I did, comments greatly appreciated.

........

Poolish
150 g flour
150 g water
1/4 tsp instant dried yeast

Mix well, cover with cling film and stand on bench 12 hours

Bread
All of poolish
185 g water
350 g flour
15 g instant dried yeast
Mix and bring to form combined mass
Autolyse for 15 minutes covered in cling film

Add 8 g salt well distributed and form dough
Knead for 10 minutes with minimal flour on bench surface
Form ball and leave to rise for 40 minutes covered in lightly oiled cling film

Stretch and fold, leave to rise further 40 minutes

Repeat stretch and fold a and leave to rise for a further 50 minutes

Form dough into well formed ball

Place on baking paper on back of baking tray

Leave to double in volume, use poke test

Use lame to slash

I then spray aga oven with water and put the baking tray on the lowest rack position having sprayed the dough surface with fine water spray
After 5 minutes further spray oven
After 5 more minutes remove bread and place on pizza stone sitting on the oven floor
Bake for further 20 minutes turning to achieved even bake

Remove bread and let stand for 1 hour

The result was a well formed loaf with oven rise and great hard crust
Crumb was best achieved yet, soft, springy and good taste

Need to adjust rise times as I think I very nearly over proofed

................

That's it , here are my pictures of bread and crumb.

Thanks to all











Poolish
150 g flour
150 g water
1/4 tsp instant dried yeast

Mix well, cover with cling film and stand on bench 12 hours

Bread
All of poolish
185 g water
350 g flour
15 g instant dried yeast
Mix and bring to form combined mass
Autolyse for 15 minutes covered in cling film

Add 8 g salt well distributed and form dough
Knead for 10 minutes with minimal flour on bench surface
Form ball and leave to rise for 40 minutes covered in lightly oiled cling film

Stretch and fold, leave to rise further 40 minutes

Repeat stretch and fold a and leave to rise for a further 50 minutes

Form dough into well formed ball

Place on baking paper on back of baking tray

Leave to double in volume, use poke test

Use lame to slash

I then spray aga oven with water and put the baking tray on the lowest rack position having sprayed the dough surface with fine water spray
After 5 minutes further spray oven
After 5 more minutes remove bread and place on pizza stone sitting on the oven floor
Bake for further 20 minutes turning to achieved even bake

Remove bread and let stand for 1 hour

The result was a well formed loaf with oven rise and great hard crust
Crumb was best achieved yet, soft, springy and good taste

Need to adjust rise times as I think I very nearly over proofed
post #44 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartScholes View Post

That's it, you're getting the mindset now. Keep us posted. peace.gif

Hi Stuart

I have posted an update for your consumption

John
post #45 of 47

Nest time you make miche or boule, try this: 

 

  • Find a ball or tightly woven basket ("banneton"), the bottom of which is close to the eventual shape you'd like. 
  • Mix, knead and proof the loaf as before, until you get to the stage where you form the ball;
  • Form the ball by using the "pull down" technique, in order to get a lot of "surface tension" on the crust, while keeping as much air in the dough as possible;
  • Place the ball, seam side up, in your bowl or basket;
  • Allow the bread to rise for about 15 - 20 minutes;
  • Invert the loaf unto your peel (if you'll be using one), or baking pan, so that it's seam side down.  Be careful to do this as gently as possible so as not to lose the rise;
  • Allow the miche to finish raising, slash as before, and into the oven as before.

 

The combined effect of not crushing the air out of the dough during formation, and flipping the bread over, will be a more even and airier texture. 

 

BDL

post #46 of 47
Thread Starter 
Thank you BDL for that feedback, have been away for past 8 days hence delay in responding.

I do have a wicker banneton but yet to use it, I will dig it out with instructions and try as you suggest

Jg
post #47 of 47

Sorry for the late reply, been away. Looks good, glad you're enjoying it and getting the results you're looking for. :)

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