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What Happens When You Abolish Tipping

3K views 36 replies 14 participants last post by  flipflopgirl 
#1 ·
#2 ·
So sad that in this day and age people will work according to the way they are paid.

So....I ask this..................

would you dine at a restaurant where you must pay a service fee added on to your check regardless of the competency of the wait person or cook?
 
#3 ·
To a degree every time you pay the bill in a restaurant you are doing so regardless of the competency of the staff. In all other industries, in truth, you pay a service fee whether it is acknowledged or not.

IMO the best solution would be to raise prices, no tip, no service charge, just more money for the restaurant to pay employees with, just like any other industry were the owner decides the employee wages without relying on not the customer to help in the decision of how much the staff is to be paid, but it will never happen due to people's perceptions.

Raising prices and eliminating tips would be a death sentence to most restaurants, no matter how silly it is. Lets say you go to dinner and the bill is $100. You leave a tip of $20. Total expenditure of $120. If all of a sudden the restaurant raised it's price to $120 and eliminated the tip, most people would say it is too expensive and wouldn't go to dinner there.

I just had my motorcycle serviced and the labor rate was listed there in bold faced writing that was easy to see. They didn't ask me for any input on how much to pay their employees so no tip was expected. They took my input out of the equation. Due to perceptions, we can't do that in the restaurant business.
 
#4 ·
So sad that in this day and age people will work according to the way they are paid.

So....I ask this..................

would you dine at a restaurant where you must pay a service fee added on to your check regardless of the competency of the wait person or cook?
I wouldn't. I'm up to here with incompetent waitstaff, either out on personal time, or working with them.
 
#5 ·
The tipping system is archaic and needs to be abolished. In a way it is slap in the face to restaurant owners, basically saying that we don't trust them to make sure that their employees are competent and diligent in performimg their duties. The lowest denominator in our industry, the fast food joints, in a way, have a service charge written into their prices and nobody complains. but yet we don't trust the Daniel Bouluds, Jose Andres, etc. to be competent enough to insure that employees are on the top of their games. I waited tables for 6 years or so and was paid half of minimum wage but I didn't care because the amount I got in tips was so outrageous. I said it then and I say now that it is a racket.
 
#6 ·
I recently heard an NPR segment on servers and based on scientific research, tips increased by up to 30% if the server:

introduced themselves by name

crouched -eye level- by the table to take the order 

touched -on the shoulder, arm or hand- one or more people at the table

Wrote "Thank you" and signed their name on the check.

It seems those were signs that you liked the customers and people want to be liked. They gave bigger tips.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The reason i dont tip is well.....

I dont go to a restaurant because i like the hunky waiters <_< i go their for the food. 

I doubt me leaving a tip it will ever make it to the cook who made my food regardless. 

Where i worked before , the cooks were slaves and the waiters would just use our labor to get their tips , so yeh i dont tip , unless i was baffled by how good the meal was , then i would need to speak the the cooks and then i would reward them. 

The fact i have busted my arse many times , sometimes even making things that werent on the menu just for the clients and thinking solely on the clients so at the end a waiter can scrub his tips in my face , makes me think the cooks deserve tips , not the waiter that seats me , brings my plates and only comes back when im finished ( or interrupts me in the middle of the meal ). 

A huge amount of restaurants in Brazil have a crappy waitstaff and i have had it giving them tips. 

Here in Brazil some menus have a little observation in the last page of the menu that states:

" Optional 10% of a tip of total cost of meal " .... " cough , cough "...... if its optional why is it listed on my menu , do you really think i will give a tip to the waiters when they didnt even cook my meal. 

If the restaurant wants , dont even send a waiter to my table i can seat myself , and get my food on the counter.

The worst is when restaurants actually make the clients hand in tips there..... as in they include the tip on your bill <_< which is absurd. 

I have worked in so many restaurants with crappy , arrogant , lazy , and sly waiters that nowadays i just dont feel they deserve it , especially when the cooks are in the back sweating bullets to make me good food. I have seen waiters picking at their teeth with toothpicks while the cooks were sweating in the hot kitchen just to please me or any client. 

So yeh after that rant , yes i think tipping needs to be abolished , no need for it when its the employers job to correctly pay their staff. 
 
#9 ·
I recently heard an NPR segment on servers and based on scientific research, tips increased by up to 30% if the server:

introduced themselves by name

crouched -eye level- by the table to take the order

touched -on the shoulder, arm or hand- one or more people at the table

Wrote "Thank you" and signed their name on the check.

It seems those were signs that you liked the customers and people want to be liked. They gave bigger tips.
That works in some segments of the industry, such as more casual arenas, but in fine dining the crouching and touching maneuvers would be a sign that more training is needed as they would be considered no-nos.

Also the jury is still out on the name issue in fine dining. While some establishments feel that it does establish a more personal note, some say yes but the position of waiter is one of service and professionalism, not one of a of personal relationship.

Managers and chefs when in the dining room don't usually introduce themselves by name when addressing guests, so why waiters. Some will say that yeah but if I need to get my waiter it is nice to be able to ask for them by name. Others will say that if a guest has to ask for their waiter for any reason, then they are not doing their job.

In fine dining, the best service is that which is unnoticed, it just happens. Unobtrusive. Professional.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I'm a very jealous Latin women, so the touchy thing doesn't sit well with me at all. I think a lot of people under-estimate how much it pisses female spouses off when female waitstaff take liberties like that. I have totally stopped patronizing restaurants with annoying female staff with mousy voices who butter up to the males in order to get a larger tip.

The crouching eye level would just annoy me to no end. It's infantile, and too TGIF-y.

Perhaps I'm in the minority of patrons who find those idiotic antics amusing. Then again, I purposely avoid establishments that are casual enough for things like that to occur in.

Give me good service, nothing more, nothing less. The better the service, and the more invisible you make yourself, the better the gratuity you will recieve.
 
#11 ·
What happens When You Abolish Tipping?

Until a majority of restaurant patrons become educated, the restaurant that does so will go broke as their prices will be 10-20% higher than their competition.

Search Cornell School of Hospitality for details.
 
#12 ·
My guess is a small percentage of restaurants are considered fine dining, but a relatively large percentage of people who post on CT work or eat at those places. The researcher is a former waiter, but I don't know where he collected data. He also reported men who had pretty waitresses usually gave better tips and women with handsome waiters did the same. Not surprising.
 
#13 ·
Tipping should definatley be optional.  I've seen some places state on the menu "XX% gratuity is automatically added, however feel free to raise or lower this based on service"  (one place that had this the service was terrible and the server rude so I had the manager lower it to 0).

The problem is there are too many wait staff who would under perform if they had no incentive (the tip) to do an above average or at least reasonable job.
 
#14 ·
and I have to inject the question of:  reality

in "reality" some people tip more, some less.
in "reality" there will always be misers who tip 0.0%
in "reality" some waitstaff do not deserve much of a tip.
in "reality" there will always be waitstaff that should tip the customer for putting up with their crappy attitude.

what is the of lump-sum "reality" of customers tipping so little that the waitperson is starving to death?
if all "their" customers are "under tipping" - who gwts fired?
note:  discount / eliminate the issue of "how much business" - if you're waitstaffing in a place with four or five tables per shift, it's time to look for another place to work because where you're at isn't going to last, anyway.

another part of the question not quite addressed:
"Prices include service"  with or without the notation 'tipping not required/allowed/whatever'
"A gratuity of x% will be automatically added to your bill."

those are two different things.  the debate that raising prices to cover service methinks is a bit moot as not too many McDonald's plus customers will not instantly recognize that:
cost + 0% tip        = $X
cost + 15-18-20% tip = $X

given that there will always exist ueber-cheapskates that regardless of anything will tip nothing.
it's like shoplifting - it is going to happen regardless of how many "precautions" one takes.

recently encountered a nice "soft" encouragement.....  on the bill, at the bottom,
"Gratuity suggestion:
15% = $x.xx
18% = $y.zz
20% = $z.zz"

does the math for the customer.  wonder if it helps; I'll ask next time......
 
#15 ·
The problem is there are too many wait staff who would under perform if they had no

incentive (the tip) to do an above average or at least reasonable job.
Amen to that, Ive seen it happen all too often with mandatory tips. Not only poor service ,

but with an attitude to boot--they get their tip AND their snotty-fix. Bad idea.

This whole tipping thing is a delicate balance in the industry. Implementing extremes

like mandatory or abolishing tips, will throw it all into a death-spiral where everyone suffers.
 
#16 ·
I agree with the point that some people don't tip/don't tip enough.

That falls on the owner/manager of the restaurant to do the following:

1. Make up the difference, which by law their required to (if the total amount is less than normal minimum wage)

2. Add gratuity in automatically for that particular customer

3. Mention to that customer, that at least a minimal tip will be required of them, unless there was a problem with the service, if the customer still refuses, refuse to serve them next time they come in
 
#17 ·
Most of our dumb society tip regardless if service is good or bad, and waitstaff knows this . So why should they try and improve? they will ge some sought of gratuity anyway.
 
#18 ·
3. Mention to that customer, that at least a minimal tip will be required of them, unless there was a problem with the service, if the customer still refuses, refuse to serve them next time they come in
If me not paying a tip , means next time i wont be served that will only cause the restaurant to lose a paying customer.

Either lose a tip , or lose the customer , regardless losing the customer you will lose money , instead of the waiter not getting a 10 dollar tip.
 
#19 ·
Gentlemen and Ladies...

You can't discuss this topic without discussing -what I believe to be the most obscene, filthiest, nastiest--- compound word in the English language.........

Tipping wages

And if that isn't filthy and nasty enough, the English language has no word to describe the following two bodies...

Lobbyists who lobbied for tipping wages

and...

Various State Gov'ts who implemented tipping wages, which, I believe the lowest is $2.13/hr and many States including TX NJ, KS, etc., abide by.

But what's even more disgusted and twisted is the opinion that the server is entitled to a tip, and that the tip is calculated as a percentage of the bill.

If that is so, then it would imply that the server is responsible for the entire dining experience. And although as hard as the server works, they are not, and can not be responsible for the entire dining experience. (unless of course it's a one man show, which in that case no tip is given, because the server is the owner, and tipping an owner is simply just not done)

And now, back to our regular programming.......
 
#20 ·
Well being as I'm no gentleman and Im therefore off the hook here, I'll be nice and address it anyways..../img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif

I agree t---ing wages should not be mentioned in public, certainly not in mixed company.

A bad idea from the start, yet most states in the US have adopted it.

The self-tip-entitlement attitude I recall speaking to in a another thread a few weeks ago.

That one chaps me too, like anyone with the nerve to dare not tip is treated worse on subsequent visits.

Servers never forget, do they?

And I never tip according to bill size, especially when alcohol is involved.

My "standard" café tip is a buck a person, better dining double that, high-end is a total judgement

call. After the overall experience, I either feel they deserve those numbers or they don't.

But with me, attitude has a LOT do do with it, even if there were mess-ups.
 
#21 ·
and I have to inject the question of: reality

in "reality" some people tip more, some less.
in "reality" there will always be misers who tip 0.0%
in "reality" some waitstaff do not deserve much of a tip.
in "reality" there will always be waitstaff that should tip the customer for putting up with their crappy attitude.

what is the of lump-sum "reality" of customers tipping so little that the waitperson is starving to death?
if all "their" customers are "under tipping" - who gwts fired?
note: discount / eliminate the issue of "how much business" - if you're waitstaffing in a place with four or five tables per shift, it's time to look for another place to work because where you're at isn't going to last, anyway.

another part of the question not quite addressed:
"Prices include service" with or without the notation 'tipping not required/allowed/whatever'
"A gratuity of x% will be automatically added to your bill."

those are two different things. the debate that raising prices to cover service methinks is a bit moot as not too many McDonald's plus customers will not instantly recognize that:
cost + 0% tip = $X
cost + 15-18-20% tip = $X

given that there will always exist ueber-cheapskates that regardless of anything will tip nothing.
it's like shoplifting - it is going to happen regardless of how many "precautions" one takes.

recently encountered a nice "soft" encouragement..... on the bill, at the bottom,
"Gratuity suggestion:
15% = $x.xx
18% = $y.zz
20% = $z.zz"

does the math for the customer. wonder if it helps; I'll ask next time......
HERE'S the real reality.

The server's job IS to greet the customer, take their orders for food, and beverage and deliver on that promise.

The server is being paid to do that job.

This is the bottom line.

This is their job.

Now......

Why are servers paid above and beyond that?

The example of the motorcycle is a perfect one where the labor is written and plain to see on the bill.

You don't tip the garage mechanic for doing HIS job.

Then.....

Why do we tip? To insure proper service?

Isn't that the job to begin with.

THIS is what I'll NEVER understand!!!
 
#22 · (Edited)
Apropos of nothing I use to have a tee shirt that read 'tip ping is not a city in china'. I wore it til it was just one big hole......i still feel that motto. There is nothing wrong with tipping but i do think that it should not be automatic.....it needs to be earned. Exception is large group tables where it takes more staff to service and attend to them.
I too hate the whole kneeling waitstaff approach...what? Are we in church? Who in blazes came up with that one? Who's study got funded for that? Oh brother. It's awkward for both customer and waitstaff and imo puts the customer in an uncomfortable position. This may seem a stretch but on some level it may even be discriminatory. For example if it's a restaurants policy for waitstaff to explain the specials and take orders in this bended knee fashion,what about the waitstaff that can't bend or stay bent because of knee, back, weight or foot conditions? They don't get hired? Who over the age of 30 unless a gymnast or in excellent shape doesn't utter even the smallest of grunts trying to get up without the assist of your table or chair after being down on bended knee for a while....now that's attractive? And to do it ALL night long?....And another thing, if they need your chair or table to pull themselves up then THEIR hands are on YOUR table and chair. And another thing, what happens when their leg goes asleep from said bent knee position?....have you ever tried to get up and just walk away when your leg/ foot is numb? It ain't pretty :cool:
joey
 
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#23 ·
>>

Why do we tip?  To insure proper service?

Isn't that the job to begin with.

I think that is the exact point - the "job wages" do not pay the fed/state minimum wage / a living wage

whether the state/fed minimum wage is good or bad is a different discussion; how much is a living wage is a difference discussion.

so these folks "rely" on tips for a serious part of their income.

here's the bit I don't understand:

poor services reflects directly on the establishment.

poor service may be lack of training, lack of guidance, or just not suitable individual(s)

so, with or without tipping, why does "management" not take a more proactive role in ridding themselves of waitstaff that gives the house a blackeye?

there are places in town I will no longer patronize because my experiences have repeated involved poor ot unsatisfactory service.

I'm voting with my feet.  it could be years and years before I (may) go back - and they are not places I recommend to anyone.
 
#24 ·
>>

so, with or without tipping, why does "management" not take a more proactive role in ridding themselves of waitstaff that gives the house a blackeye?
That can best be answered with the following statement:

Pay peanuts, get monkeys

and that applies to management as well as employees...
 
#25 ·
>>Pay peanuts, get monkeys

no quibble with that theory.

however, were I waitstaffing, not sure I'd be slicing and dicing my pay so thin as to say:

boss is cheap

customers are cheap . . to . . . generous

in the end, one takes home X dollars as "pay" - not sure it makes any difference whether the dollar bills come from 'the boss' or from 'the tips'

it is one occupation where even on 'equal terms' the pay varies daily/weekly.  some budget and financial planning skills helpful.

the question is:

can one make a living as waitstaff?

or, is it something best left as a part time / college student "occupation"

if one is putting in 40(+) hours a week, doing a decent job, in a 'well occupied' eatery, can one "live" on what the cheap boss pays plus the average of (skimpy to generous) tips?

and if the system gets changed to flat hourly rates, how much is enough?  how many $$/hour "makes a living"

- for who?

- and to what "standard of living?"

someone married, primary breadwinner, with kids, car payment and a mortgage who is absolutely heartset on being a top-notch high-end super-professional wait/er/ress - no they likely can't survive on an average of $8/hr. 

nor can the burger flipper buy a McMansion and a Bentley on that wage.  well, at least not since the no-questions-asked fraudsters got shut down.

want, need, can - all different concepts.

which methinks is the reason that individuals who have expectations of financially more rewarding work seek careers in "better paying" occupations. 

whether that involves "higher education" or "innate talent" or "criminal intentions" - whatever. 

if one wants to suggest that everyone works 2080 hours a year and has the same take home pay which must be a living wage, then one is getting into socialism. 

which btw, is a well documented and working theory in any number of European countries - you may earn 3-4-5 times as much as your neighbor who is a street sweeper, however all  that "excess" is taxed away and redistributed in cradle to grave state welfare. 

in the end, everyone has (approximately) the same disposable income regardless of career or 'success' or - sadly must be added - '"hard work." 
 
#26 · (Edited)
so, with or without tipping, why does "management" not take a more proactive

role in ridding themselves of waitstaff that gives the house a blackeye?
Well heres my answer:

Because damn few people, even if ticked off to high water, will do anything about it.

They may complain to the server at the time, more likely to those in their partiy.

They may VOW to go to the owner/manager/call corporate....but not right now.

They tip, albeit maybe "light" like 10%, then go on their way, By the time they

get home, or even more so the next day, they may REMEMBER it, but their fire to

do something about it, to make that call, is pretty much cold ashes.They may or may not go

back.

With restaurant chains, I have personally accomplished more with a phone call to ccorporate

than I could've imagined.

Point: If it's a widespread problem, a drop in regulars and resulting sales is the only indication

to the owner that something may be wrong. Although a lot of em just blame the economy and

raise their prices and cut their portions, aggravating the real problem.

Aha, you may exclaim, but then the owner/GM isn't doing their job, not paying close enough attention

to whats going on in their establishment. Well...........yeah.

So here we have a service industry where a tip is expected for mediocre to cruddy service,

and when that service is subpar, instead of voicing the real problem, the tip may shrink

and the customer gets labeled cheapskate. The only problem I see with tippjing is in the attitides

developed by those receiving them.

Also a problem is owners or GM's who are oblivious to how their servers are treating customers.

I have stood there and listened to a manager on more than one occasion, point blank ask a server

"what was the problem between you and Table 8?" and watched as the server stared em in the eye

and flat lied to them with a completely straight face.

Hey Mimi, where are ya?

You gonna weigh in on any of this? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 
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