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swiss broyage or dacquoise or succes- anyone know how it's supposed to be?

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

Following up on Ordo's quest for that layered desert, the thought of "swiss broyage" (the base of dacquoise) came to my mind and wouldn't leave it.  I kept imagining what it would taste like.  I had a craving that wouldn't go away and unfortunately every weekend since i've been busy mainly with work.  So finally i made it sunday. 

 

Seeing ordo's picture, it made me think of 2 nutty meringue layers enclosing a thick layer of whipped cream or bavarian cream. 

 

I was going for the whipped cream taste (mild, simple). 

 

I got out julia child's recipe and wondered if anyone might know if what i ended up with is how it should be.  I found it excessively sweet, and not very crispy.  (Of course, with the cream i knew it would soften up, but i didn;t expect chewy, i expected very crisp.)

 

Is that right? 

 

And would it work with a bit less sugar?  i know meringue needs sugar, and i imagine that's part of the crispness i'm looking for.  Maybe i didn;t cook it long enough, i don;t know, but i left it longer than she called for. 

 

recipe

 

1 1/2 cups ground almonds

1 cup extra fine sugar

1 level tb plus 1 1/2 tsp cornstarch

3/4 cup egg whites (6 eggs)

1/8 tsp salt

1/4 tsp cream of tartar

1 1/2 tsp vanilla extract

3 tbs more of sugar

 

250 degree F oven preheated

 

mix almonds and sugar to remove lumps (i used whisk, she says with hands).  sieve cornstarch over this and mix well.  set aside

 

Beat egg whites moderately slow speed till foamy - beat in salt and c of t, gradually increase to high speed, until soft peaks form, gradually beat in the 3 tbsp sugar and beat till stiff.  add vanilla.

By hand fold in the almond mixture a fourth of it at a time, barely incorporating gently

spread or squeeze through pastry bag on cookie sheets in three layers.  1/2 inch high

 

bale 250 F for about 40 min.  remove immediately onto cake racks. 

 

My problem, they were a little gooey rather than light and crisp - even when cooled and before layering with whipped cream (already far too sweet as it was, and i can't imagine using buttercream!).  The flavor was EXACTLY how i imagined, and wonderful, but the texture no. 

 

I have my doubts about not beating more of the sugar with the egg whites.  It seems the sugar kind of weighed it down.  Maybe i didn;t grind the almonds well enough, or should have actually grated them rather than put in the blender, but she said you can use the blender. 

And what if i use less sugar?  maybe a couple of tbsp less?

 

thoughts


Edited by siduri - 11/9/13 at 9:34am
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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post #2 of 17
Thread Starter 

nobody who can help me? 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
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post #3 of 17

When I read your post, I thought of marjolaine - which is nut meringue layered with buttercream; the meringue softens as it absorbs the moisture from the buttercream and you can sort of manipulate how soft/crispy it is by when you assemble it and when you serve it.

post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 

It sounds similar, jcakes.  Julia Child says that very thing, it's crisp, then gets softer when it's been with the buttercream.  But mine wasn't really crisp to begin with, it was a little chewy.  Wanted to know why that might be - i left it longer than she said because I tested it (she says it should detach from the pan easily when it's ready, and this didn't so i put it back) and it got just faintly tanned, beige.  It's only really supposed to dry out.  I finally took it ten minutes later than it was supposed to, and still it was a little resistant to leave the greased baking parchment. 

 

too much sugar?  almonds not ground finely enough?  is it a mistake to beat only 3 tbsp of sugar into the whites and fold the rest in? 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #5 of 17

When I bake mine, the original formula says to bake for less than 30 minutes, but I always go past that - depending on the size I am making, it could be as much as an hour in the oven for a 3x5 rectangle  and leave it in the oven overnight to dry completely.

 

A little chewy sounds more like a pavlova shell (without the nuts) where the inside meringue is supposed to be "creamy" (in the way that a marshmallow is "creamy" which I know is not very much help) rather than dry

post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCakes View Post
 

When I bake mine, the original formula says to bake for less than 30 minutes, but I always go past that - depending on the size I am making, it could be as much as an hour in the oven for a 3x5 rectangle  and leave it in the oven overnight to dry completely.

 

A little chewy sounds more like a pavlova shell (without the nuts) where the inside meringue is supposed to be "creamy" (in the way that a marshmallow is "creamy" which I know is not very much help) rather than dry


Yes, it was just like a pavlova!  ok, then next time i'll leave it more.  Creamy is not how i'd describe a good meringue, more melt-in-your-mouth than creamy, though once it melts in your mouth it IS creamy. 

 

What about the sugar not being beaten in but only folded??  i found that strange and wondered what is the purpose.  Do you know?

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #7 of 17

I'm going to have to look up the recipe we use at work; but I'm pretty sure it calls for mixing some of the ground nuts with sugar (I want to say it's confectioners sugar) and making the meringue with granulated sugar (going to soft peak and then adding sugar a little at a time and letting it become firmer, as you would for French meringue) and then folding in the nuts after.....

 

Maybe it's time for a different recipe?

post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 

I imagine some of the sugar would go into the nuts, but in julia child's recipe, all but 3 tbsp goes into the meringue, the rest is folded in with the nuts.  It just doesn;t seem right, and makes me think that's the reason it's chewy.  She calls for and i used superfine sugar. 

 

I also remember most angel food cakes call for only part of the sugar in the meringue and the rest folded in.  It seems bizarre to me, and i wonder the reason for it. 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #9 of 17

Hello Siduri, sorry for not responding earlier but my excuse is that I was out of the country for a while. I realized that I never added a recipe for making what we call a "Miserable" which looks very much like ordo's delight.

Maybe this recipe from a very good Flemish chef will help you. This recipe uses a classic 50/50 broyage mix ( to be precise, 250/250 sugar/almond). Do check that the almond powder is absolutely 100% almonds! Sometimes they already add sugar to make almond powder cheaper! As you will notice, there's really nothing quite difficult but following the recipe should do the trick. I guarantee it's delicious, even better, it's my favorite. Enjoy.

 

Miserable

 

Ingredients for the cake;

- 8 egg whites

- 50 gram sugar

- 250 g almond powder

- 250 g icing sugar

- 50 g wheat flour

Ingredients for the butter cream;

- 2 eggs (bio preferably)

- 250 g icing sugar

- seeds from a vanilla pod

- 300 g cold, very good quality butter

 

Preparation;

1. Preheat the oven to 190°C

2. Whisk the 8 eggwhites and 50 g sugar on high speed, using an electric mixer (don't do it by hand!)

3. In another bowl, mix icing sugar and almond powder with the 50 g wheat flour

4. Use a spatula to gently fold the eggwhites in the almond mixture

5. Clad a baking tray with baking paper and spread the mixture out evenly

6. Bake for 20 minutes at 190°C

7. Start making the butter cream; add 2 eggs and 250 g icing sugar to a bowl. Use an electric mixer at full speed to beat until a stage where it couldn't be beaten more fluffy (maybe not the right word?) and all sugar is completely disappeared.

8. Scrape the seeds from a vanilla pod and add to the egg mixture.

9. Add the cold butter, cut in small chunks and now mix at low speed into a creamy mixture

10. When the almond cake is done, remove from the oven and cut in two equal slices

11. Spread a good layer of buttercream on one half and cover with the other half. Press just a little, cut in individual portions. Sprinkle some icing sugar on top

 

I translated it from the following page. There's a picture too; http://www.piethuysentruyt.com/miserable/

You lived too long in Europe to contest my decision to post all in metric. Anyway, pour les autres; la même chose.

post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 

Thanks Chris, i'll try it.  i see that even in this one the sugar is half beaten in and half folded, but the one i used had a very small proportion beaten in to the meringue.  I wonder if that made it too chewy.

I can't find almond flour here, so i just grind my almonds in the blender, but perhaps they exude too much oil that way?  i think if i could grate them they would be less compressable. 

when you say wheat flour, you mean white flour?  i noticed your picture shows the meringue dark.  Could that be the almonds were ground with their skins? or whole wheat flour.  I assume bloem is flour (flower) - is tarwe wheat? 

 

is poedersuiker powdered sugar?  or just finely ground sugar? 

 

Flemish and english are close cousins, funny to try to figure out the words - if i say them out loud phonetically they begin to sound familiar!  I was in Brugge once, it was a jewel - magical. 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by siduri View Post
 

Thanks Chris, i'll try it.  i see that even in this one the sugar is half beaten in and half folded, but the one i used had a very small proportion beaten in to the meringue.  I wonder if that made it too chewy.

I can't find almond flour here, so i just grind my almonds in the blender, but perhaps they exude too much oil that way?  i think if i could grate them they would be less compressable. 

when you say wheat flour, you mean white flour?  i noticed your picture shows the meringue dark.  Could that be the almonds were ground with their skins? or whole wheat flour.  I assume bloem is flour (flower) - is tarwe wheat? 

 

is poedersuiker powdered sugar?  or just finely ground sugar? 

 

Flemish and english are close cousins, funny to try to figure out the words - if i say them out loud phonetically they begin to sound familiar!  I was in Brugge once, it was a jewel - magical. 


It's very difficult to describe the texture of this Miserable but it resembles somewhat like a good macaron; a very light crust and a softer inside that compacts and goes a little chewy when you eat it.

Almond flour is more almond powder, a bit more coarse than flour. I have bought a few packs (to put in a clafoutis) that most likely was ground almonds with the skins on. Specialized baking-stuff shops should have the right almond powder available? Personally I wouldn't care if the skins were ground in or not.

 

- bloem is indeed flour in this context. (Flowers to put in a vase are also called "bloem")

- wheat flour was correct

- poedersuiker is icing sugar. I know it says "poeder", but the translation in this case is icing sugar.

You probably noticed that 50 g plain sugar is used in the cake mixture for use with the eggwhites, but the broyage mixture is as usual made with icing sugar.

post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 

Chris, yes, "flower" was a middle or elisabethan spelling of flour - and in italian they might say "fior di grano" even if the usual word is farina - fior means flower.  so i figured bloem sounded enough like bloom to be flower, therefore flour.  (there's a bit of the detective in me). 

 

so poedersuiker is icing sugar, but isn't icing sugar powdered sugar?  the fine powderlike sugar without visible grains?

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #13 of 17

You really are a detective. I believe you experience the same excitement that people have who manage several languages and discover similarities that aren't sometimes all that obvious. Very much aha-moments, aren't they?

 

Indeed, icing sugar is powdered sugar, but it is a known fact that a starch is added to commercial icing sugar to enhance that powdery structure. I have no idea if that starch is important in recipes like this or not, my guess is that the starch content in icing sugar might be neglectable... or maybe the starch contributes to make the mix more stable? Dunno.

 

Edit; btw, maybe you have a few ethnic shops where you live too? Those are now my main source for almonds, pistachio, walnuts, hazelnuts etc. etc. They have it in all forms; peeled, unpeeled, ground into powder, salted, unsalted...

Also great source for finding good dates like Mahjouls and all kinds of dried figs. I love to sniff around in those places and made a lot of interesting discoveries. Last time I found an Italian (!!) pasta, brand is Campioni, which is called tempestina. Looks like couscous. I bought it but have no clue yet how to use it. 


Edited by ChrisBelgium - 11/22/13 at 3:51am
post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post
 

You really are a detective. I believe you experience the same excitement that people have who manage several languages and discover similarities that aren't sometimes all that obvious. Very much aha-moments, aren't they?  Even when i only knew english, i was interested in word origins.  My first attempt at etymology was when i was 8 and we had studied "fulton's folly" - the steam engine.  I remember the moment while playing outside, thinking of the word "locomotive" and i thought, aha! it's a crazy idea, a loco motive!  (too bad i was wrong). 

 

Indeed, icing sugar is powdered sugar, but it is a known fact that a starch is added to commercial icing sugar to enhance that powdery structure. I have no idea if that starch is important in recipes like this or not, my guess is that the starch content in icing sugar might be neglectable... or maybe the starch contributes to make the mix more stable? Dunno. I doubt it would make that much difference, it seems the texture would be the most important. 

 

Edit; btw, maybe you have a few ethnic shops where you live too? Yeah, i live within a half hour walk of the big covered ethnic market (esquilino market) where there are people from all over the world.  But since i rarely use ground almonds, i just grind them, easier than going to a special place.  Those are now my main source for almonds, pistachio, walnuts, hazelnuts etc. etc. They have it in all forms; peeled, unpeeled, ground into powder, salted, unsalted...

Also great source for finding good dates like Mahjouls and all kinds of dried figs. I love to sniff around in those places and made a lot of interesting discoveries. Last time I found an Italian (!!) pasta, brand is Campioni, which is called tempestina. Looks like couscous. I bought it but have no clue yet how to use it. tempestina is simply a form of pastina (the word "tempestina" means little storm) and it's used exclusively in broth, like people put noodles or alphabet pasta, or acini di pepe, or noodles.  

 

I still wonder why the recipe i have, and some for angel cake, call for some of the sugar to be folded in.  What is the advantage of that, what is the effect? 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #15 of 17

I have no idea what that effect of sugar is, only that sugar sweetens and softens a cake where eggs seem to make a cake tougher.

But... I found this dutch website that has an English version, containing a lot of wisdom on baking! I'm gonna read that website from a to z!

 

Here's the English version;

 

http://www.classofoods.com/ukindex.html

 

Scroll to the title "4.2 Cakes and Muffins" and click on it.

post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 

Thanks Chris.  But the website doesn't say (i didn;t see it anyway) what is the difference between beating the sugar into the eggwhites and folding it into them.  I know sugar stabilizes eggwhites, but does too much sugar ruin them?  and if you fold it in, what happens?  why fold it in when you could just beat it all in?  And above all, why, in these recipes, like julia child's for broyage or others for angel food cake, don;t they explain why they say to do it that way? 

"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
"Siduri said, 'Gilgamesh, where are you roaming? You will never find the eternal life that you seek...Savour your food, make each of your days a delight, ... let music and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.'"
Reply
post #17 of 17

If you had any fat near the meringue as it baked (you mention greased parchment) I suspect that the fat would change the texture of the meringue considerably. I made a 10 x 13 rectangle of nut meringue and it bakes at 250 degrees Farenheit for 1.5 hours; the oven then gets switched off and it sits in the oven without opening the oven door for another 1.5 hours. I consistently get a lovely, crisp texture without the meringue being so brittle that it turns to dust when you try to slice it.

 

I do use cooking spray on the side of the parchment NOT exposed to the meringue to adhere the parchment to the baking sheet, so if I have misunderstood your method, my apologies!

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