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Need help in recreating a pastry like pizza crust

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I'm trying to figure out a pizza crust I like very much. The crust is full of layering which I assume if from (fats). The layering I'm after is like a pie crust however it's lighter, more airy, and drier. By drier I'm mean the water or the fat content is lower.

I struggle getting layers when making biscuits and it's almost kinda like that. I'm guessing the dough needs to be cold to keep the fats solid to create the layering (is that always true?)

The first pic below is of a pie crust. These are the layers I am shooting for. The other pics are actually of the pizza crust and I wanted to show the light and airy layers.

Please help if you can.


photo 241D7AD6-327E-43DD-BF9A-1C395F681865.jpg

photo 836D0BF8-4467-47C7-AF7E-C75F788623DE.jpg

photo 888FDE14-CC90-47B0-9904-86909FCE08FE.jpg
post #2 of 19
Thread Starter 
No baking Guru's on here?
post #3 of 19

I don't do deep dish style, so I'm really out of my element here but since you're desperate . . .

 

check the technique for making croissants.  yes - it's layers and yes the butter must be kept cold

it's an entirely different approach than the typical "rising dough in a bowl" thing ala breads or pizza dough.

 

the water in the thinly layered fat "explodes" during a fast bake - that produces the layers & flakies.

and, especially in the deep dish style, you're gonna need a really really hot oven.

 

how this will work out using yeast leavening / heavy toppings / etc should provide for fertile experimentation.....

post #4 of 19

the pics of the actual pizza is just normal pizza dough.

the effect in the dough you see is because of yeast leavening, which makes dough airy.

 

the leavening in croissant dough is totally different, and indeed, "fertile experimentation ground".

also, it will take a lot of time when you want that for pizza.

plus, your pizza bottom will probably be soggy as its hard to get dough like that crispy with wet ingredients like a sauce etc.

just two things to consider before you start your experiments ;) 

post #5 of 19

I use bought puff-pastry for things like a pissaladière (sort of French pizza-style with onion and anchovies).

 

But...., since several years I have this French recipe for an alternative puff pastry in My Favorites, perfectly suited for making pies and what not. Only thing though, I have never made it myself. It's quite popular in France, so maybe this could be the thing you're looking for.

 

Recipe from;  http://gastronomades.canalblog.com/archives/2005/07/20/665866.html

Look under; 6. Recette pâte feuilletée-minute

 

Here's my translation. Let's call it "quick puff pastry" or Puff pastry "light"

 

"This is a fast and excellent recipe, simply said genious! Of course you will not get that heavenly taste from puff pastry but this one has a very good taste, renders a very interesting consistency and limits the calories since it contains little butter. What makes it so original is the use of "Petit-Suisse" cheese. (note: this is a delicious French fresh cheese, not Swiss! It's quite firm and is enriched with cream). This pastry can substitute puff pastry in classic recipes, in amuses, meat-, vegetable- and fish pies. (click on the pictures on the french webpage to go to other recipes using this pastry).

 

Ratios; This recipes requires the use of Petits-Suisses using a factor "P" that equals the weight of the Petit-Suisses";

- "P" grams of Petits-Suisses

- "P" grams of flour

- P/2 grams of butter

- salt (approx. 1 teaspoon for each 250 grams of flour

 

Ingredients for use in a non-stick 30 cm diameter removable pie mold; - 6 Petits-Suisses of 60 grams (360 grams in total) - 360 grams of flour - 180 grams of butter - 1,5 teaspoon of salt Sieve the flour first, then work the other ingredients in, using a spatula, then quickly mix manually. Roll out and put in the mold. You can sweeten this pastry if wanted."

 

The website doesn't say anything about oven temperature, but a quick search learned that it's baked at 200°C.

Also, I just read that the Petit-Suisse could be substituted with ricotta cheese... Two very different things if you ask me.

 

Don't know if you can find Petit-Suisse cheeses in your country. Most packages look like this. Each little roll of cheese is also individually packed in a paper;

post #6 of 19

WARNING: I have VERY limited experience with Chicago deep dish pizza... but...

 

Dough for Chicago-style deep dish pizza gets its pastry-like quality from a high proportion of oil/butter.  It is a really greasy dough.  It is not "normal" pizza dough, nor is it a laminated pastry dough.

 

Re: flaky biscuits... that is a totally different question!

post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillbert View Post

I don't do deep dish style, so I'm really out of my element here but since you're desperate . . .

check the technique for making croissants.  yes - it's layers and yes the butter must be kept cold
it's an entirely different approach than the typical "rising dough in a bowl" thing ala breads or pizza dough.

the water in the thinly layered fat "explodes" during a fast bake - that produces the layers & flakies.
and, especially in the deep dish style, you're gonna need a really really hot oven.

how this will work out using yeast leavening / heavy toppings / etc should provide for fertile experimentation.....


So basically is just like puff pastry? The only thing with this dough is it's less greasy and dryer than puff pastry. Do I just cut down on the hydration and butter?
post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soesje View Post

the pics of the actual pizza is just normal pizza dough.
the effect in the dough you see is because of yeast leavening, which makes dough airy.

the leavening in croissant dough is totally different, and indeed, "fertile experimentation ground".
also, it will take a lot of time when you want that for pizza.
plus, your pizza bottom will probably be soggy as its hard to get dough like that crispy with wet ingredients like a sauce etc.
just two things to consider before you start your experiments wink.gif 

So are you saying to just add yeast to croissant dough? The bake time is generally 35-45mins for this pizza.
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post

WARNING: I have VERY limited experience with Chicago deep dish pizza... but...

Dough for Chicago-style deep dish pizza gets its pastry-like quality from a high proportion of oil/butter.  It is a really greasy dough.  It is not "normal" pizza dough, nor is it a laminated pastry dough.

Re: flaky biscuits... that is a totally different question!

I understand that this dough is full of oil. I'm trying to find out how to get the texture as seen in my pics. Should the dough be baked cold to achieve the layering? How do I get it to be dryer and less greasy also? Decrease water and fats or just the fat content?
post #10 of 19

I think you may be onto a winner in going down the (proper) croissant line. With a real croissant (not a puff pastry one), you work with the dough cold and let it prove for a long time, so this enables you to work it as you would a puff pastry - meaning, slow prove the dough at a cold temperature and then use the yeasted dough to form a puff pastry before shaping and second proving.

 

I may experiment with this myself tomorrow, it looks interesting. This is what I would do:

 

150g Very Strong White Flour

100g Plain (White) Flour

10 - 15g yeast depending on how old it is etc.

160g Cold Water

6g Salt (depending on how strong your salt is)

200g Butter

 

Also get a bread stone - I got a terracotta tile (it MUST be unglazed - the glazes contain lead) from a diy store for about £5 and it works brilliantly.

 

Method:

 

Add 3/4 of the yeast, strong flour, water and salt into a bowl. Stir lightly together and set aside to rise. Allow it to rise until it has overproved - risen and then collapsed.

 

Add the remaining flour and yeast, knead together and leave to rest covered in in your fridge or somewhere cool.

 

When doubled in size, knock back and roll out as you would to make puff pastry (a cross shape with a slightly thicker bit in the middle). Bash the butter between layers of greaseproof paper to loosen it and reshape into a square.

 

Put the butter in the middle and fold the cross around it - use opposites. Roll into a rectangle. Fold the bottom third up to the middle and then the top third over the top of it. Do a quarter turn and roll out another rectangle. Refrigerate and repeat the rolling process 1 - 2 times. (If this stage makes little sense then there are lots of puff-pastry tutorials on the web or in books, you should find it easy to see what I mean). I wouldn't roll it more than 4 times, maybe even just stick at 3. You don't want full puff pastry, just layers of fat.

 

Put your oven to preheat at your highest temperature - around 230 degrees C with your bread stone in it.

 

Roll or stretch your pastry into shape inside your tray/dish and leave to prove for half an hour to an hour in a moderately warm place, NOT the obligatory airing cupboard! 20 degrees C will do fine. DO NOT ADD THE TOPPINGS.

 

After the second prove your oven should be well up to temperature so put the whole thing in for a few minutes, monitoring carefully. When the crust starts to form in the middle then you can take it out, add your sauce and toppings before returning to the oven to complete cooking.

 

I'm not saying this will work, but it might be a good place to start your experimentation.

 

Another thing I've noticed while typing this recipe and thinking, observing etc. is that the dough is very light coloured, with a texture that looks quite similar you French baguettes. My understanding is that the yellowy brown colour of dough comes from incorporating air during the kneading process - the way to avoid this seems to be high hydration dough with a long proof time, allowing the glutens to align without the process of kneading them into shape. What I'm saying in a roundabout way is that a high hydration dough, long proving and little handling may produce that stretchy layered look too, so if your first experiment is nowhere near the mark then that might be the next line of inquiry to pursue.

 

Hope this helps.

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookandEat View Post


I understand that this dough is full of oil. I'm trying to find out how to get the texture as seen in my pics. Should the dough be baked cold to achieve the layering? How do I get it to be dryer and less greasy also? Decrease water and fats or just the fat content?

What is the dough recipe that you are using?  I've never seen a recipe for this style of pizza that used laminated dough of any kind.  Every reciep I've seen or used has been for a rich dough that is very greasy to press into the pan but bakes up to a rich and ungreasy result... just like can happen with a brioche.

 

Have you already baked one (or more) or is this an academic exercise at this time?  If academic, I suggest you google Peter Reihardt (I many have mis-spelled his surname though), especially look up his book on pizza which does a very nice treatment of Chi-style pie.

 

My experience making Chi-style resulted in a crust that was crispy edge and bottom, with fluffy interior and "layering" but only in the sense of layering like Wonder bread (RIP) showed layering from being folded/rolled prior to the final rise in the pan.  I had the best experiencing getting what you are seeking when the dough is risen and pie is baked properly.  Could one of those be issues also?

post #12 of 19

no that is not what I was saying….. I was saying that using such a dough for pizza is no good idea.

I also explained why: because  the dough would be too soggy.

 

35 mins baking for a pizza? at what temp? pizzas usually are baked at 450 F for 20 mins depending on filling. a NORMAL pizza…..

post #13 of 19

Soesje... the use of the term "normal pizza" could possibly create a global insurrection, ha ha ha.  For New York  or California style your stated temp/time is not unusal for a home cook using a home oven.  An industrial pizza oven is much hotter and takes much less time.  For Neapolitan style any oventhat isn't wood-fired, or is less than 900 degF is too cold and the cook time will be too long.  The Chicago deep dish under discussion here is no "normal" pizza.  It is so thick that to get cooked fully requires longer and lower temsp.  35 min at 350 degF is not unusual.

post #14 of 19

well thanks for the heads up.

I am no home cook ;)  and for me pizza is according to the italian style as I am european….not familiar with deep dish at all.

there is always something new to learn.

post #15 of 19

If I'm not mistaken the commercial pizza ovens around here (deck or conveyor) are generally run at 550 degF.  That is why I mentioned 450 being more asoicated with "home cook/oven".  I can get my home oven to 500 and that bakes a better pizza, but running the oven at that temp for too long risks burning the house down.  :)

 

p.s.  I, too, am an "outsider" to the Chicago deep dish.  I learned it from reading and trial and error but never really liked it and never experienced a real one in Chicago... so I think mine is authentic but don't know for sure.

post #16 of 19

Chicago-Style Deep Dish Pizza (cooks illustrated)

Makes two 9-inch Pizzas (Serves about 6)

The recipe for the tomato sauce calls for grated onion. I followed it faithfully, because Cook’s Illustrated usually has a reason for everything. The sauce was pretty amazing, and I’d make it again. However, I suppose the pizza would hardly be altered if you wanted to substitute any good-quality, not-too-pureed tomato sauce you may already have on hand. Also! I forgot to mix the fresh basil directly into the sauce, so I sprinkled mine on top, as you most likely noticed in my photos.

post #17 of 19

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/980/ginos-east-pizza-crust

 

 Following the link posted prior to this post, my thick crusted pizza made using 00 Caputo (75%) and semolina (25%) took, fully loaded, around 15 minutes to finish in an oven fired at 475F using a fully seasoned blue/black steel pan from Paderno.   The crust tasted light instead of chewy.  A chewy crust is one made from bread flour instead of mine that was made using extra finely ground from AP hydrated at 70%.

 

Look, pizza dough is hydrated at 60-75%.  Chewy = BF.  Delicata = Caputo.  In between = AP.  Your choice depending on how your teeth fit into your jaw.


Edited by kokopuffs - 1/24/16 at 3:27pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #18 of 19

delete delete delete


Edited by kokopuffs - 1/24/16 at 3:26pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #19 of 19

delete delete delete


Edited by kokopuffs - 1/24/16 at 3:26pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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