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Apprentice Chef? - Page 2

post #31 of 55

This is age-old debate/conversation will continue. There is, in fact, an American Culinary Federation (ACF) chef's apprenticeship program that designates, following an exam, a certification. That certification is only had by membership in the ACF which, for many, belonging to that group is debatable in itself. Not sure if this sheds any light or not.

 

I am not so sure that it matters, in the end. Be a cook. Be a chef. Be a hack. It doesn't matter. If you are good at what you do and work hard, you will have a sense of pride and accomplishment. The same can be said for a doctor, plumber and welder. If you need your ego stroked, then you need your ego stroked. Don't make it more than what it is. We buy stuff. We fix it up. We sell it.

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post #32 of 55

Yeh so overall just go for it and see what happens, me i think my limit will be a cook i mean as much as a chef seems cool i shy away from top roles because i'm not really a competitive type, i am with gaming but other than that in the real world the competition turns vicious all too often and i've been through a lot already so now i just push myself as far away from highly vicious and competitive people as much as i possibly can, i can't entirely but i just don't like that. I could be a singer too as i'm a good singer but again i want the lime light but i don't want it because i also want a life outside of work.

Whenever i'm near a microphone i yearn to be the leading lady but then i step back and i don't want that to be everything. So just get out there and try, i'm about to go for an aprenticeship and i have nerves and doubts about it too because of what some lecturers say at the local college, they are not very supportive at all and i'm worried after putting blood and sweat into that college for a year and a half they will do something to ruin it for me, but i'm trying anyway.

post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefross View Post
 

 

 

Just remember that Bobby, Emeril, Ervin, Morimoto, and their elk were "AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THER RIGHT TIME".

 

They are great cooks who were discovered, same as an actor would have been.

They are recognized as Celebrity Chefs first and then their history usually comes after.

 

Here's one....Remember Anthony Bourdain? 

Ever read his book Kitchen Confidential? 

The first few chapters don't paint a very glamorous picture of his early years.

Now look at him.......  More books, television appearances, and his own programs..... 

 

Up until these guys were "discovered" most of us had never heard of them.......

 

Yup, they're not recognized.

 

Fred and Wilma go and eat at  their establishment and they tip the waiter and tell o the waiter to tell o'l  Bobby or Emeril or whatever that their food was great, but the waiter gets 20% of the entire bill as a tip, at least he's recognized, the Chef or cooks can go suck on hind's teats though.

 

I hate the word "discovered" when it pertains to restaurants and Chefs.  Every week I get somebody in place wanting to know when I opened up, when did I move into the neighborhood?.  I tell them, 2007.  They tell me I'm not serious.  What should  I say?  "Excuse m'am is that a question or statement?  It sure sounded like a statement" ?  Bloggers or busybodys "discovering me" and wanting to take credit for my business, wanting a cut of my earnings, hitting me up for every imaginable charity?

 

No, I was never "discovered".  Not saying I'm famous or have wonderfull food.  But I came from the same place almost everyone else come from--their mother's beds.  Then again, I don't know about pro- blogger's origins....

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post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefross View Post
 

 

 

Just remember that Bobby, Emeril, Ervin, Morimoto, and their elk were "AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THER RIGHT TIME".

 

They are great cooks who were discovered, same as an actor would have been.

They are recognized as Celebrity Chefs first and then their history usually comes after.

 

Here's one....Remember Anthony Bourdain? 

Ever read his book Kitchen Confidential? 

The first few chapters don't paint a very glamorous picture of his early years.

Now look at him.......  More books, television appearances, and his own programs..... 

 

Up until these guys were "discovered" most of us had never heard of them.......

 

 

Hey Chefross, I think many would say the same as you but for myself I don't believe they were at the right place at the right time. I think they were incredibly talented chefs that worked hard. Charlie Trotter was not at the right place at the right time, neither was Freddy Giradet they were great chefs who worked hard and were recognized for it (even though it is not a recognized professions). I think when I consider someone well know who I would say was "at the right place at the right time" I would say someone like Rachel Ray. I like her show I think she helps a lot of people but is she the most talented chef? No (but neither am I for that matter). 

 

Regarding Bourdain, I do remember his book (he even did a live chat with the ChefTalk community in 2000). The first few chapters are not glamorous but you know what? I did not have any of the experiences he had and I was in the business almost as long as him. Bourdain's story was one story by a person who likes to focus on the darker side of life (just look at his shows). Lastly, I was an aspiring chef long before Bourdain's book and I knew who Charlie Trotter was and I knew who Freddy Giradet was. 

 

What I think this discussion has come to is that there is know formal training recognized in the US like an electrician, plumber etc etc. I guess without really know much about the ACF (American Culinary Federation) I thought that was our formalized training but not all chefs agree that it is necessary. Heck, 90% of the chefs I worked with or for did not go through the ACF programs at all. I guess the question is what would it take for chefs to become a recognized profession?

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post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post
 

 

...

 I guess the question is what would it take for chefs to become a recognized profession?

 

Adopt a set of standards for various levels of skill and make them mandatory for those in the profession.  

 

Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience.

 

Honestly with the huge diversity and creative adaptation possible I don't think it will ever happen.

 

Check out the Red Seal exam in BC and Alberta.  (mind you these are not 'requirements' they are voluntary much like the ACF)

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post #36 of 55

>>what would it take for chefs to become a recognized profession?

>>there is know formal training recognized in the US like an electrician, plumber etc etc.

 

so, other than the current political football of Joe Six Pack The Plumber....

 

name me one plumber or one electrician of national fame / renown.

 

Good food is good food. 

Extraordinary food is different – that comes out of kitchens which spare no trouble or expense for even the least detectible nuance of a / some flavor - according to them.   and regrets to say – a lot of people can’t even “detect” - but that is not an issue that can be blamed on the ultimate perfection chef / kitchen.

 

Like, think on it for a minute…..  if you’re eating a top top end restaurants daily - or just ‘frequently’ – where/when/how does ‘good food’ become ‘extraordinary food?’

 

This is mostly why a steak at one joint is $20, but in the best places runs $200.

 

I’ve had really yummy grub from $20 places and $200 places.  Now…. The $20 plate came with fries and green beans, the $200 place served vegetables prepared / named in foreign ways I could only guess at (which has now changed; got a smart phone so I can surf it tableside…..good for me, woe for them)

 

My impression on how to become famous:  get yourself a little luck, a few good reviews, raise prices to $150/person.  Americans love to think if it costs more it must be more better.  The higher the prices, the more exclusive the perception.

 

heh, I’ve ‘followed’ a couple ‘big names’ through this procedure.  starting with the "original" Bookbinders (Phila - and yeah big debate about the name and which place, etc & et. al.) Did not work out for the old Bookbinders (they folded) but sure worked for many others.

 

And I must add, most of those famous dudes have since come to rest on their laurels – or as I think of it… their axxex.

Prices are/remain high, food is abjectly mediocre, and apparently the name behind the brand has no interest anymore.

 

Read:  “Tourist Trap” – which is why you do not find $200/plate eateries in small towns – people are smart and don’t go getting ripped off again and again.  In a Tourist Destination – every week it’s a fresh batch of unwitting people lined up to eat at “the famous . . . “

 

don't get me wrong - some high price joints are worth it, some are just there collecting outrageous money based only on the "name"

post #37 of 55

Yeah-butt...

Joe-the-plumber charges $65/hr plus a truck fee, plus parts, plus taxes, and no one complains.  They're just happy to get a plumber.

 

Wonderful food or not, cooks get paid some of the lousiest wages. Heck, even janitors get paid more.  And there is a direct link to lousy wages and no recognized qualifications in the hospitality industry.

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post #38 of 55

>>no recognized qualifications

yes, but that has zip comma zero relationship to "fees / charges / wages"

 

the $65/hr the plumber charges is not what the dude with the short tee shirt and butt crack gets.

somebody has to buy / lease the truck, pay insurance/gas/repairs/tags/inspection/maintenance/pay for his 'travel time'/etc el barfo.

 

plus, roughly 50% of the employee's hourly rate in payroll/social security/medicare/unemployment/etc and el barfo "taxes"

 

if your menu item is priced at $25, no - the food material raw costs are not $25.

 

bashing "business" for pricing is very popular; if one has any 'insight' into the costs on the 'other side' one would not wonder why the plumber has to charge $65/hour.  those who wish to bash the business should redirect their bashing anger at 'government' regulations/taxes/requirements.

 

it's "good" in some respects (requiring health care, etc) but people need to keep in mind, all those costs come back to the dollar per hour rate the business must charge in order to make that $12/hr electrician available on your door step.  if a business does not cover its costs and generate a profit, it goes out of business.

 

many countries have apprentice programs / 'real life' OTJ training.

theoretically, one should be able to "judge" and "grade" a student in a standard four year college program and pronounce them with "Bachelor" level skills in culinary arts. 

 

there's a couple of issues, of course..

for engineers, they get a problem description with all the "input numbers" - perhaps cleverly 'disguised' - but all the information to 'solve' the problem must be provided.

the test is whether they know how to develop a 'solution' to the problem.

 

otoh, to test a cook candidate, there's some options for the "create a dish" test:

(1) using beef, salt, pepper, (long list of potential ingredients....)

(2) combine x grams of beef with y grams of salt and z grams of pepper and  . . .

 

the engineer candidate that cannot create a proper numeric solution does not get a degree. 

not especially difficult for professors who've given the same exam foe the last 10 years to spot "good" solutions from "bad" solutions.

 

asking a cook candidate to 'make via imagination' is a good test; but the whole thing falls flat on it's face because unlike math, taste is an individual thing.  2+2=4 is true anywhere.  a cook candidate's taste may clash with the 'grader' tastes - not the candidate fault - taste is exceedingly difficult to quantify

 

all those people out there making chili with 500 pounds of(hot-hotter-hottest) peppers per ounce of ground beef:  newsflash - I can't eat it and I'd give it a minus zero "grade" - I just don't do 'burn off yer lips' food.

 

using option (2) there's little potential to judge ability/skill/training/etc & el barfo.

the only question is whether the cook candidate has accurately measured out the quantity of specified ingredients.

yes yes yes.... technique plays a role and will affect the result.  but again, the result is judged by 'taste' - subjective, hard very hard to quantify/standardize.

 

it's all quite simple:

what grade did DaVinci's teachers assign to his artistic efforts?

history has judged him a dang good artist (among other things) but what did his teachers say?

post #39 of 55
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dillbert View Post
 

....

 

it's all quite simple:

what grade did DaVinci's teachers assign to his artistic efforts?

history has judged him a dang good artist (among other things) but what did his teachers say?

 

Probably encouraged him to be a plumber!

:p

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post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelGA View Post
 

 

Adopt a set of standards for various levels of skill and make them mandatory for those in the profession.  

 

Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience.

 

Honestly with the huge diversity and creative adaptation possible I don't think it will ever happen.

 

Check out the Red Seal exam in BC and Alberta.  (mind you these are not 'requirements' they are voluntary much like the ACF)

 

 

~~"Adopt a set of standards for various levels of skill and make them mandatory for those in the profession."

 

We do have something like that already in the American Culinary Federation but they are not recognized by our government

 

 

~~"Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience."

 

You can not do this here in American.... land of the free.

 

 

And........Nicko...........I still must tell you that even though Charlie Trotter, or Emeril, or Bobby, worked hard to get where they are, they did not do it alone.

Someone, somewhere, somehow had to eat their food, at one time in order for them to become what they are now.

 

You don't like the word "discovered" Foodpump.......sorry but it IS what it IS.

 

These Celebrity Chefs  were realized by someone who had the ability to offer them the status they enjoy now. It didn't just happen by itself.

 

 

When you eat at their restaurants, they may or may not actually be the one cooking your food, so to say that you at ate at Mario Batali's restaurant means nothing.

 

On the other hand.......I've eaten at the French Laundry in Napa, and met  Thomas Keller.

He's in that restaurant watching you on a television monitor while you eat.

post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefross View Post
 

 

~~"Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience."

 

You can not do this here in American.... land of the free.

 

Sure you can - you can't practice Law without passing the bar or be a doctor without a license, that is the whole defining point of a profession.

----

 


"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

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post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelGA View Post
 

 

Sure you can - you can't practice Law without passing the bar or be a doctor without a license, that is the whole defining point of a profession.

 

Again........................This flies in the face of what America is all about.

Here in America we are FREE to open any kind of restaurant we want irrespective of what experience, or knowledge we might have. 

 

It is our right.

 

Now if we want the food Nazis to come around and close this place or that place because it is felt that so and so Chef, really isn't a Chef, we're going to have a problem.

 

I surely don't want something like that, but all said, I believe the education would solve that problem.

 

We have discussed theory versus education here and I believe that in order for everybody to have the same set of rules to follow, we have to have employees that are educated in everything from sanitation, hygiene, food preparation, plating etc. This can not happen if people self educate or base everything they've learned on experience alone.

 

Charlie Trotter never went to culinary school but you can bet that he read and studied and practiced on his own before he ventured out in to the world.

 

On the other side of things.....just because one went to culinary school and has a degree, it doesn't make them a Chef.

 

You can't create a professional licensing situation for the culinary world without first putting everybody on the same set of guidelines.

Guidelines that must be used all the time and be the same everywhere. It's just not possible right now.

post #43 of 55

Nicko

   Flay was put into business by two ex mayor Ed Koch politicians who owned real estate. They used to go into a place where he was a cook and liked him. Both of them always dreamed about opening a rest. Rachell Ray sold pots at a major dept store.

  Most chefs have talent and work their way up through the jungle.

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post #44 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefross View Post
 

 

Again........................This flies in the face of what America is all about.

Here in America we are FREE to open any kind of restaurant we want irrespective of what experience, or knowledge we might have. 

 

It is our right.

 

Now if we want the food Nazis to come around and close this place or that place because it is felt that so and so Chef, really isn't a Chef, we're going to have a problem.

 

I surely don't want something like that, but all said, I believe the education would solve that problem.

 

We have discussed theory versus education here and I believe that in order for everybody to have the same set of rules to follow, we have to have employees that are educated in everything from sanitation, hygiene, food preparation, plating etc. This can not happen if people self educate or base everything they've learned on experience alone.

 

Charlie Trotter never went to culinary school but you can bet that he read and studied and practiced on his own before he ventured out in to the world.

 

On the other side of things.....just because one went to culinary school and has a degree, it doesn't make them a Chef.

 

You can't create a professional licensing situation for the culinary world without first putting everybody on the same set of guidelines.

Guidelines that must be used all the time and be the same everywhere. It's just not possible right now.

 

 

Oh yeah, land of the free....

 

Look, I have my business in a strata with 7 other businesses.  We all started off with 4 cement walls.  Guy next door to me is a successful contractor, bought two units for "investment purposes"  spent 50 grand per unit getting them up to code ( lights, power, washrooms, floors etc).  They sit idle for two years.  So he converts one to a coffee shop because his son needs a job.  They know nothing about food service.  A few months later he puts a pizza oven.  Guy's got no grease trap and well over 30 seats with only one washroom. He got away with that because he never got a change of use and the café is still supposed to be a retail unit.   For three years he makes no money, he's had it on the market for 3 years and no buyers. In the meantime he puts out sh*tty food and even sh*ttier coffee (Vancouver, like Seattle, is a coffee town, OK) he's dropping prices every month and his quality gets even sh*tier. He plugs up our building's sanitary lines.  He can't sell the business, but he finally manages to get someone to take it over. They have no food service experience.  Health inspector won't pass them because they don't have a hand sink, City Hall gets involved because of the seating and grease trap issue.  They (new tenants) have no idea what they've got themselves into, but they're dead set on a southern style menu with chicken and ribs.  If they want to run a ventilation shaft to anywhere it's 70 feet horizontal...

 

Guy on the other side of me is a real estate agent.  Bought a unit for "investment purposes".  Found a tenant to renovate the suite to a tune of 60 grand.  Nice kid, no foodservice experience, but he did everything by the book.  60 grand in infrastructure/leasehold improvements for the landlord and his business is bubble tea.  Max. guest cheque is $3.95. By the end of 6 mths he's running off to Costco to by muffins to up the guest cheque.  By 9 mths he's collapsed the business and found someone to sublease.  All he while he was lowering prices to attract more business.  New tenent takes over, within 2 years she's given up and someone else takes over.  And THEY have no experience.....

 

As all of these businesses are going down, they cut every corner and slice every penny.  Sh*tty food and quality.  Same thing happens all over the country.

 

Point I'm trying to make is that there's so much competition in the food service industry, that it is very hard to cover costs, let alone make money. 

There are two  exception to this point:  

-The first is monopolies a.k.a franchises

-The second is operators making something unique, so they don't have to worry about competition.

 

Buying into a franchise is easy, you just need money and head office does everything else. This is why it's so popular, it's also why we have such cheap food and unskilled labour.

 

The second option is very difficult.  You really have to know what you're doing, you need to know your market, need to know your suppliers, need to know your labour market.

 

 

We need qualifications. period.

We need qualifications for restaurant owners, so they don't collapse within 6 mths and pull down all the neighboring busineses with them as they're going down

We need qualifications for cooks so that they can get paid a salary they can live on, and keep our trade supplied with people for the next generation.  If we don't, we will only have burger flippers and nuker-pushers.

 

You might not like qualifications, but you have one in your wallet right now.

-A driver's license

 

Now that piece of paper might not seem like much.  It is no guarantee that you won't cruise through 4-way stops, or drive 50 mph in the passing lane.  That piece of paper however guarantees me that you did pass tests and that you know better, you have no excuse to plead ignorance. 

 

Now, I have visited and worked in "other" countries where I would never get behind the wheel of a car.  The kinds of countries where the horn button is regularily substituted for the brake pedal, where the cops drive at night without their headlights on.  Maybe the licenses were bought on the black market, maybe bribes, maybe handed down from father to son, like heirloom piece of furniture.

 

 

Don't let your freedom of opening up a place with no experience in the food service industry get in the way of my freedom of running my business.....

 

Dillbert?

It's only 8 am here, and I have to go to work now.  Your post has a lot of issues that need to be discussed.

I'll be back...

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post #45 of 55

It doesn't matter who did it in what way just they got out there and worked hard, i watch the Shaytards on YouTube and the YouTubers on there work incredibly hard to get the views and money they now have, of course it was easier back in the early days of YT, Shay Carl says it's just Time and Pressure, that's all it is and he too believes it's a myth that you have to be in the right place at the right time, you get yourself there nobody else gets you there, it just takes 1 person to give you that chance (and i know a lot of people are very picky and critical about who way too much), but that's it really, so go for the Apprenticeship, i'm not entirely sure how far if get myself but at least i would get to be a cook if not all goes well but i got myself work as a cook at least, nobody can ever predict what happens.

post #46 of 55

An interesting interview with David Chang on Culinary Schools.

 

Quote:
 David Chang. The Momofuku empire-builder once took his frustration to Twitter, telling culinary schools to "stop sending kids to resorts & hotels where they will learn nothing...its [sic] poisoning our talent pool." He has also advocated for the return of apprenticeship programs in lieu of culinary school.

 

http://eater.com/archives/2013/07/11/david-chang-on-culinary-school-the-system-is-broken.php

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Nicko 
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Thanks,

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All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
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post #47 of 55

Yeh i agree with that guy that many parts of society is broken to an extent it's utterly useless doing it, doesn't have an actual point it just pays in cash to them and that's it, indeed schools and colleges are just there now for intuition fees, they are a money making business not a school, apprenticeships here in the UK though are probably the best thing going for all of us right now but it's turning the same was as the US which isn't a good thing.

For now we actually have the government investing in apprenticeships and we get to learn in restaurants but even in the US it's got to be a better way to learn than say colleges or cooking schools, you at least learn a lot more, just got to find what we can and YouTube have a lot of videos to learn from as we know, and i have no doubt some family members can help out, my dad knows how to use certain tools like sharpening stones so id ask around your family too and see what they know.

post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillbert View Post
 

>>no recognized qualifications

yes, but that has zip comma zero relationship to "fees / charges / wages"

 

Yes it does.  A plumber or a gas fitter is paid according to his "ticket", ie gas fitter 1, 2 or 3.  same for electrician, same for most professions when you need to upgrade your skills (ie auto mechanics, electronics,etc)  Employers pay according to qualifications achieved as well as working experience

 

the $65/hr the plumber charges is not what the dude with the short tee shirt and butt crack gets.

somebody has to buy / lease the truck, pay insurance/gas/repairs/tags/inspection/maintenance/pay for his 'travel time'/etc el barfo.

 

The "butt-crack" plumber is not licensed.  You can hire a butt-crack to fix a leaky faucet, or replace a seal on a terlet, but would you really hire an unlicensed plumber to hook up a major appliance like a furnace or hot water heater?  Uncle Fred to wire up a 220 v clothes drier? You know as well as I do that if you did, and an accident happened, when the insurance co finds out an unlicensed guy did the work, they're not paying a dime.  And if you're in a strata...good luck.

 

plus, roughly 50% of the employee's hourly rate in payroll/social security/medicare/unemployment/etc and el barfo "taxes"

Uh..so?  Cooks don't get have to pay that stuff?  We don't have to pay taxes?

 

if your menu item is priced at $25, no - the food material raw costs are not $25.

 

Now that is funny.  No ha-ha funny, but funny like an acne encrusted 14 yr old telling a retired porn star the facts of life funny. You know, embarassing funny.  Most of us who've commented on this thread are Chefs--not cooks.  This means we were hired on our present jobs because we could keep our food and labour costs in line in our previous ones.  There's not one single decision we make every day that does not include food and labour costs factored into making that decision.  And those decisions are made in 1/500th of a second too.

 

bashing "business" for pricing is very popular; if one has any 'insight' into the costs on the 'other side' one would not wonder why the plumber has to charge $65/hour.  those who wish to bash the business should redirect their bashing anger at 'government' regulations/taxes/requirements.

 

See above for the acne encrusted 14 yr old comparison

 

it's "good" in some respects (requiring health care, etc) but people need to keep in mind, all those costs come back to the dollar per hour rate the business must charge in order to make that $12/hr electrician available on your door step.  if a business does not cover its costs and generate a profit, it goes out of business.

 

No electrician works for $12/ hour, maybe one off the boat from a foreign land that doesn't know the local codes, but not a licensed one .  Absolutely agree with you that if a business can not cover it's costs it goes out of business.  Why then, are there so many start-up restaurants and food service businesses that go bankrupt within 6 mths?  Two reasons, enormous competition for the dining dollar, and lack of experience.

 

many countries have apprentice programs / 'real life' OTJ training.

theoretically, one should be able to "judge" and "grade" a student in a standard four year college program and pronounce them with "Bachelor" level skills in culinary arts. 

 

there's a couple of issues, of course..

for engineers, they get a problem description with all the "input numbers" - perhaps cleverly 'disguised' - but all the information to 'solve' the problem must be provided.

the test is whether they know how to develop a 'solution' to the problem.

 

The standard test for apprentices in Europe is to make them work, 9-5 M-F in a real-live job.  If they can handle it for 3 years, great, they get to write the test, which also includes a very harsh practical exam that is based on very real life situations.

 

otoh, to test a cook candidate, there's some options for the "create a dish" test:

(1) using beef, salt, pepper, (long list of potential ingredients....)

(2) combine x grams of beef with y grams of salt and z grams of pepper and  . . .

 

the engineer candidate that cannot create a proper numeric solution does not get a degree. 

not especially difficult for professors who've given the same exam foe the last 10 years to spot "good" solutions from "bad" solutions.

 

asking a cook candidate to 'make via imagination' is a good test; but the whole thing falls flat on it's face because unlike math, taste is an individual thing.  2+2=4 is true anywhere.  a cook candidate's taste may clash with the 'grader' tastes - not the candidate fault - taste is exceedingly difficult to quantify

 

I think you've got the wrong idea about commercial cooking.  It's all about consistency.  If you and your partner go to "X" for a b'day and have, say a wonderful lamb dish, and go back 6 mths later for  your anniversary  and order the lamb again, you expect to have more or less the same dish.  Yes there will be minor variations and yes taste is a a personal thing.  But good cooking is only achieved when the proper technique is used properly with the proper ingredients.

 

all those people out there making chili with 500 pounds of(hot-hotter-hottest) peppers per ounce of ground beef:  newsflash - I can't eat it and I'd give it a minus zero "grade" - I just don't do 'burn off yer lips' food.

 

using option (2) there's little potential to judge ability/skill/training/etc & el barfo.

the only question is whether the cook candidate has accurately measured out the quantity of specified ingredients.

yes yes yes.... technique plays a role and will affect the result.  but again, the result is judged by 'taste' - subjective, hard very hard to quantify/standardize.

 

Eh, no as I said above, technique is a major factor in judging a cook.  Speed and cleanliness are others. Following procedure and not "inventing" or gilding the lilly is yet another.  However, one of the most important factors is if that cook can get along with his/her coworkers.

 

it's all quite simple:

what grade did DaVinci's teachers assign to his artistic efforts?

history has judged him a dang good artist (among other things) but what did his teachers say?

 

What did his clients say?  Da Vinci was a genius, but he also dragged his feet and wrangled out of commissions and had to run from patrons from time to time.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #49 of 55

It is the part and parcel of culinary training, which you have to go through.

post #50 of 55

well, good luck with that.

post #51 of 55

Oh i agree on the part about Da Vinci just because he thought differently from others and was smarter he got shoved down far too often by others, i get the same and it's a tougher life believe me but it's so worth it, constantly being told no because you don't fit the "profile" of a typical person gets very disheartening regularly but you always manage to get up again some how.

post #52 of 55

Foodpump, I understand where you're coming from, but I want to make quite clear that while I DID say that in our country, one has the ability to open whatever business they choose

I NEVER said anything pertaining to the idea that one needs experience and knowledge to do so.

post #53 of 55

Fair enough.  You do need experience and knowledge to get a driver's license though.

 

You know the rates of failure for restaurants in the first 6 mths of operation as well as I do.  You also know what kind of a mess an  operator with no experience can, and does, make.

 

If you've ever talked to health inspectors--regardless of which N.American city they work in, they will all tell you that all operators need to know what they're doing before they hand out menus.

 

"                                 " plumbing, electrical, and fire inspectors "                                           "  they will tell you the same thing, and  probably will illustrate with a few horror stories.

 

 

Now, if you've ever eaten at a Chinese banquet or wedding, at a table of ten other people sharing the same dish of food, you will know it is custom to enquire of your table guest's health BEFORE eating.

 

Why?

 

They all eat from the same dish.  What affects you affects me.

 

We are all competing for the same dining dollar--eating from the same dish.

 

The newly opened diner that uses microwavable pasta dishes and muffins from Costco and closes down within 4 mths affects all other foodservice establishments in the area.  Every corner is cut, every penny sliced during this long, slow, painful death from opening to shutting down.  Staff are paid bare minimum, food quality is non existent (microwaved, refrigerated Danish, anyone?) and the public is used to it--the quality and prices.

 

 Freedom is a word difficult to describe........

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by riderc90 View Post

So I have heard of this type of thing but have never seen a job posting or anything seeking an apprentice chef. What exactly is it? How do you find such positions? Is it a productive alternative to culinary school?
post #55 of 55
I graduated the ACF apprentice program. And it worked out well for me. I saved about 50-60 thousand dollars on culinary school and doing just fine for myself. It's about the person and your drive not necessarily your education.
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