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Plating concept thread "Straight Lines" - Page 2

post #31 of 52

You're welcome, Chris. I myself am fascinated by both arguments, and I totally agree with you on each individuals innate talents outside of the Golden ratio principles.


Edited by Pollopicu - 3/9/14 at 1:25pm
“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

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“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

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post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake t buds View Post
 

 

Hmmm. I would have to respectfully disagree.  Square format Photography( 2.25 X 2.25) has been around for a while with spectacular results. Effectively creating space and good composition isn't more or less difficult in any format. It's a restriction or parameter. How you deal with it is where the challenge is. More restrictions means more opportunities to solve the problem. If you had anything goes, then it would be more problematic because there are no restrictions, and it would by default be entirely subjective. But then again, much of art is subjective, yes? Some may perceive a square as boring and not dynamic, but how you stimulate it is where the end result should be judged. If you are always seeing a square format, then a 6X9 would be exciting. There have been studies that analyze eye movement when looking at an image and it's content. 

 

Anyway, 6 years of art and design school and 30 plus years of experience has taught me that. Selecting the frame of reference aspect ratio has more to do with mainstream thinking, technical issues, and societal acceptance. Round compositions were/ are used a lot in religious institution and ancient roman floor patterns and frescoes. Still are. It's the same thing as saying there are ugly colors. There is no such thing. Every color is beautiful when you align it with another color or colors. You can do that successfully or not. If it's ugly to you, then it's just your subjective like or dislike. Not to disrespect your husband. Just my 2 cents. I do in fact believe there is "good" composition and "bad" composition when it comes to activating a frame of reference and making it dynamic, calming, static or any one of a multitude of other emotions one can conjure when someone views something visual. *

 

Golden ratios are great, and are reflected in nature, but I fear the majority of the public wouldn't know a good composition or the golden ration if it hit them in the face. Being moved by what you see or food plating has much to do with your background and upbringing as well as education. I also like to think of how you eat something and the combination of flavors in each bite influences how you plate something, but people eat differently. Pizza rippers, folders, knife and forkers, etc is testament to that. 

 

>very impressive Chris.

 

*Reminds me of 1st year design. We were taught a number of "rules" based on the Bauhaus, but design and art has evolved since i've been in school. The internet and the proliferation of easy to learn graphics tools (software) has made creating visual experience much easier for the "masses" - and it has, in my opinion, created a more watered down aesthetic<

 

/end rant/

 

Maybe I'm just cranky. 

 

Get of my lawn. 0_o


Your post very much reminds me of Josef Albers' "Homage to the Square".

1.%2B50.jpg 


Edited by Pollopicu - 3/9/14 at 5:20pm
“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

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“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

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post #33 of 52

Pollopicu : interesting you should make that connection. I was taught color and composition by a guy who was taught by Josef Albers at the Chicago School after ww2. It was the basis of my color theory education (although I've studied others). 

post #34 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake t buds View Post
 

Pollopicu : interesting you should make that connection. I was taught color and composition by a guy who was taught by Josef Albers at the Chicago School after ww2. It was the basis of my color theory education (although I've studied others). 

 

Jake would you want to lead a thread on color theory and it's relationship to food? I was thinking it might be the next logical transition from our plating discussion. I've got no formal training, but I have had a lot of exposure to it over the years due to my profession.

 

This is a tool I find interesting, it creates color combinations, and variations, as well as "complements"

http://colorschemedesigner.com/

post #35 of 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake t buds View Post
 

Pollopicu : interesting you should make that connection. I was taught color and composition by a guy who was taught by Josef Albers at the Chicago School after ww2. It was the basis of my color theory education (although I've studied others). 

Impressively cool. I learned about Albers nearly 20 years ago, and was always impressed by his study of the square.

 

About a year ago or so I picked up "The Bauhaus Group, Six Masters of Modernism", by Nicholas Fox Weber, who was very close to both Josef and Annie, the only married couple of the Bauhaus, I believe she was a textile artist? anyway it was a pretty interesting read.

 

I believe the Bauhaus principle of "Form follows function"  can definitely be applied to plating as well.

“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

Reply
“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

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post #36 of 52

Back in the dark ages, I was an architecture major and a disciple of Frank Lloyd Wright. This particular quote has always stuck with me

Quote:

Form follows function - that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union.

Frank Lloyd Wright

Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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post #37 of 52

That would make more sense. The original quote by Sullivan is actually "form ever follows function".

“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

Reply
“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

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post #38 of 52

I've got many ideas but not enough time lately rather than let them disappear I'll toss them into the discussion half done.

 

(the first part might be better in another thread)

 

Plating and leaving the 'empty' space around the rim is a very western concept. 

In the east asia and also the middle east, almost all plates / bowls and even cups are filled right to the very rim.  

Often if the vessel isn't full it is seen as a slight and a guest isn't likely to come back as they have been 'snubbed'. 

 

I think it probably has to do with a different sense of personal / physical space.  

Some more common well known examples, the sake cup, bowls of pho, rice bowls mounded high and the tradition of using 'coupe' style plates for almost all asian cuisine (usually piled high).

 

-----  ----

 

Straight lines - immediately got me thinking about Lebanese food and other spill overs of that region. 

 

I wonder if it is because of an inherent background of the culture or an understanding of the golden rule and straight lines.

 

pic's are worth a thousand words.. (not my pics as i've not had the time but they are representative)

 

Kebbeh Batata

wpid8209-Tawlet-Cooking-School-Beirut-Lebanon-Middle-Eastern-Food-19.jpg
 
Shawarma Bites individual size
ChickeShawarmaPlatter1060.jpg
TTXlFupznZkxfI-640m.jpg
chicken_shawarma-plate.jpg
img_8502.jpg
130212-_KABOB_01_16390261.jpg
 
Family platters and accompanyments
FAMI2
filename-p1100315-jpg.jpg
saharaplatter.JPG
 

----

 


"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

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----

 


"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

Reply
post #39 of 52

My goal on previous posts was to make readers aware of some theory that is used in the art world and make it all understandable and easy to use in plating. Awareness is the first step toward change. I hope maybe some readers will take it a step further. I spoke of elements, not specific food items, to keep the focus on composition and nothing else.

 

To make a short workable résumé;

- use smaller elements by cutting too large items on a plate in smaller ones (something I still have to work on myself!). Make sure the different sizes of elements look balanced.

- try to put an odd number of main elements on your plate; 1, 3, 5 etc.

- try to plate along diagonals and crossing diagonals, they do not necessarily have to intersect in the middle of the plate.

- divide long lines or diagonals into 1/3 and 2/3 which approaches the Golden Ratio. Use these strong points to place important elements on, which will strongly draw the attention on that item on the plate.

- group items on a plate to form another unity rather than positioning them separately on the outer corners of a plate. Group them closely either in the middle of the plate or somewhere on a strong point along a diagonal.

- make a pattern with similar elements

 

Also, look on the internet for artistic modern plating and try to discover what kind of technique they use; is it grouping, making patterns, odd or even elements, using diagonals and how do they intersect... etc. I found this page on the internet made by a Belgian photographer. It will show how some of our top chefs plate up; http://www.stefaniegeerts.be/photography/culinary

Just click on the pictures, from there you can scroll using the left and right arrow. Ignore the first picture with the hamburger.

post #40 of 52

I forgot to mention an interesting artist who used straight lines and... the Golden Ratio more than you think; Piet Mondriaan. Look for yourself how these lines are divided, how these lines create shapes (=patterns) and how these shapes relate to each other in sizes...

 

 

When you do a search for Mondriaan on the internet and look for images, you will notice that this artist was and still is many times copied in fashion, architecture and... in food.

However, we have a member around here by the name of dcarch who has posted many times plates that always reminded me of Mondriaan!! Hope he would join the discussion as his plating is mostly out of the box, extravagant and very unique imo. He breaks rules and I love that.

post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake t buds View Post
 

 

Hmmm. I would have to respectfully disagree.  Square format Photography( 2.25 X 2.25) has been around for a while with spectacular results. Effectively creating space and good composition isn't more or less difficult in any format. It's a restriction or parameter. How you deal with it is where the challenge is. More restrictions means more opportunities to solve the problem. If you had anything goes, then it would be more problematic because there are no restrictions, and it would by default be entirely subjective. But then again, much of art is subjective, yes? Some may perceive a square as boring and not dynamic, but how you stimulate it is where the end result should be judged. If you are always seeing a square format, then a 6X9 would be exciting. There have been studies that analyze eye movement when looking at an image and it's content. 

 

Anyway, 6 years of art and design school and 30 plus years of experience has taught me that. Selecting the frame of reference aspect ratio has more to do with mainstream thinking, technical issues, and societal acceptance. Round compositions were/ are used a lot in religious institution and ancient roman floor patterns and frescoes. Still are. It's the same thing as saying there are ugly colors. There is no such thing. Every color is beautiful when you align it with another color or colors. You can do that successfully or not. If it's ugly to you, then it's just your subjective like or dislike. Not to disrespect your husband. Just my 2 cents. I do in fact believe there is "good" composition and "bad" composition when it comes to activating a frame of reference and making it dynamic, calming, static or any one of a multitude of other emotions one can conjure when someone views something visual. *

 

Golden ratios are great, and are reflected in nature, but I fear the majority of the public wouldn't know a good composition or the golden ration if it hit them in the face. Being moved by what you see or food plating has much to do with your background and upbringing as well as education. I also like to think of how you eat something and the combination of flavors in each bite influences how you plate something, but people eat differently. Pizza rippers, folders, knife and forkers, etc is testament to that. 

 

>very impressive Chris.

 

*Reminds me of 1st year design. We were taught a number of "rules" based on the Bauhaus, but design and art has evolved since i've been in school. The internet and the proliferation of easy to learn graphics tools (software) has made creating visual experience much easier for the "masses" - and it has, in my opinion, created a more watered down aesthetic<

 

/end rant/

 

Maybe I'm just cranky. 

 

Get of my lawn. 0_o

 

I can't speak on my hubby's behalf but all this sounds like gobbldigook to me.  I should just say then that it is his "opinion" that making a composition on a square is more difficult for "him" than it may be for someone else.  It's a personal opinion and nothing more than that.  Although based on my last trip to his studio there are quite a few square canvases up so while he might think it more difficult it doesn't seem to stop him from pursuing it.  I wouldn't want to be gawdy and throw out his credentials but I know that he's in a position to have this opinion fairly and squarely (pun intended hehe).  I'm not an artist so I cannot engage in the conversation about it.

 

I have square plates and round plates.  And I put the food on them as artistically as I can.

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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post #42 of 52

I don't want to over complicate this discussion, but dishes are in 3D. We'll need an AutoCAD expert soon.

Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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post #43 of 52

Chris! Never heard that one, If you make platter of tomato,basil,mozzerella all touch as does an antipastp platter .

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post #44 of 52

 

Originally Posted by eastshores View Post
 

 

Jake would you want to lead a thread on color theory and it's relationship to food?

 

I would be happy to accommodate in any way I can, although I'm by no means an expert when it comes to food. Let me know what you have in mind, but it would take some thinking and I wouldn't be able to start a new thread immediately. I'm traveling on tomorrow and wouldn't be able to get to it until later this week - if that's acceptable. 

 

Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post
 

I wouldn't want to be gawdy and throw out his credentials but I know that he's in a position to have this opinion fairly and squarely (pun intended hehe). 

 

I'm sure his opinion is completely supported and I'm sorry if I sounded gawdy in stating a few applicable experiences. I just thought I would justify my opinion so it didn't sound like it came from the peanut gallery. 

post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post
 

I forgot to mention an interesting artist who used straight lines and... the Golden Ratio more than you think; Piet Mondriaan. Look for yourself how these lines are divided, how these lines create shapes (=patterns) and how these shapes relate to each other in sizes...

 

 

When you do a search for Mondriaan on the internet and look for images, you will notice that this artist was and still is many times copied in fashion, architecture and... in food.

However, we have a member around here by the name of dcarch who has posted many times plates that always reminded me of Mondriaan!! Hope he would join the discussion as his plating is mostly out of the box, extravagant and very unique imo. He breaks rules and I love that.

ah! Mondrian is a perfect example. Just came across a dessert plate on the internet a few months ago that was inspired by his work. I also might have sported a Mondrian T back in the early 90's..

db_puffpastry41.jpg

 

But yes, the Golden ratio can be found in many classical works of art and architecture.

 

Cristo Crucificado by Diego Velázquez (1639)

 

File:Cristo crucificado.jpg

 

 

 

File:Laon Cathedral's regulator lines.jpg

"Illustration of the Notre-Dame of Laon cathedral. According to Macody Lund, the superimposed regulator lines show that the cathedral has golden proportions."
 
 
There's actually a museum called "The Museum of the Golden Ratio".
 
Perhaps some of us could all go on a CT field trip...you know, for research. :talk:
“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

Reply
“After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relations.”
Oscar Wilde

 

 

Reply
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake t buds View Post

I would be happy to accommodate in any way I can, although I'm by no means an expert when it comes to food. Let me know what you have in mind, but it would take some thinking and I wouldn't be able to start a new thread immediately. I'm traveling on tomorrow and wouldn't be able to get to it until later this week - if that's acceptable. 

I'm sure his opinion is completely supported and I'm sorry if I sounded gawdy in stating a few applicable experiences. I just thought I would justify my opinion so it didn't sound like it came from the peanut gallery. 

Of course not, I respect your opinion very much I just wish I could participate in the discussion of it more but I can't since I don't have an art background and can't speak for him. The conversation actually came up when we were trying to design one of our bedrooms and couldn't figure out where to put everything and I remember him making the comment that it's a square room and a square composition is tricky.

Quite frankly for all his talents he can't take a descent picture but his oils and prints are nice.

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #47 of 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post


 The conversation actually came up when we were trying to design one of our bedrooms and couldn't figure out where to put everything and I remember him making the comment that it's a square room and a square composition is tricky.
 

Well, that probably explains it. The reason square rooms are tricky is that most furniture, with the exception of dinning tables that might be square (and only in commercial restaurants), sofas, armchairs, sideboards, etc. are rectangular. That in in of itself is a bit of a challenge because the function of circulation impedes a "nice layout." If furniture were square then you could fit it all in a grid. Bigger rooms allow for more leeway. You know, that loft space kind of effect when you've got a sofa or bed surrounded by 1000 square feet. The functionality of a space is different that just composition. I think the variables are greater. In other words, if you eat something from one side of the plate with something from the other, it's not like you'll stub your toe or have to squeeze by a 4 foot tall ceramic vase with flowers in it. 

 

The most commonly used golden rectangle imagery is the nautilus. 

 

 

How to construct the rectangle (from wiki) :  

 

 

there are many units of measure and proportional tools. Le corbusier used the "modular man" and the Japanese introduced the "Ken" And no, it's not by Mattel!!

 

Go here for how it is implemented in architecture. Could be applied to food plating if you consider it two dimensional.

post #48 of 52

Please, let's not chase readers away by getting in this Golden Ratio thing too much.

 

To conclude with simplicity and practical use on that topic for your plating (and for the sake of everyone who's looking somewhat bored already), let's just say that it's about obtaining harmonious proportions when dividing a line, a volume, a space etc. in two parts. No need for calculations; simply divide that line, volume, space etc. into a 1/3th part and a 2/3th part and you're approximately bang on the Golden Ratio. Simple as that, leave the calculations to architects.

 

That's what I did without any calculations on these two objects I posted earlier (I did this simply by eye); both the line and the square are divided in approximately a 1/3th and a 2/3 part.

 

Plating 8 - Golden Ratio

 

An everyday example maybe; look at the square and imagine the red volume is a red sea. In painting and photography, no artist will ever put the horizon dead in the middle of the square, simply because this is not a harmonious proportioning (you might remember that when making your holiday pictures!). It's always like here on 1/3th of the surface, or the inverse at 2/3th of the surface.


Edited by ChrisBelgium - 3/11/14 at 4:05am
post #49 of 52

Why don't we go practical? One thing I want to point out especially is how much  your knife skills can do for your plating!

 

Compositions All of these presentations were made using only 2 medium carrots!

 

 

Yes, I made these 4 presentations with only... 2 medium size carrots. Total timing for peeling them, cutting them and making these presentations was around 20 minutes.

This is such a great exercise on pure composition when you use only one product like carrots or potatoes etc. You can cut these in all kinds of shapes and try to make a nice composition. Now you can see what knife skills do to good plating. Imagine there were only 2 whole carrots in this picture....

 

My suggestion is to learn how to make basic mirepoix cubes, julienne little sticks, tiny brunoise cubes, nice equally thick slices and all kinds of shapes. I forgot the little balls you can cut out with a melon cutter or Parisiènne spoon as we call it. All of this will allow so much more creative presentations.

Sort of divide et impera... :lol:

post #50 of 52

The name is chef Tom Van Lysebettens and he looks like a school kid but look what this guy plates. 

http://instagram.com/tomvanlysebettens#

post #51 of 52

Beautiful!

Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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post #52 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post
 

Why don't we go practical? One thing I want to point out especially is how much  your knife skills can do for your plating!

 

Compositions 

 

Chris.. thanks for that demonstration. It certainly shows how knife skills can influence the presentation of your dish. Some of the cuts are more abstract, but most maintain a standard geometry and you have composed them into something more important.

 

I think that is a very important thought in plating, and eludes to what you've already presented. That we should consider the shape and form of the individual element as well as the composite. How we interpret the grouping also has to do with how we see what makes up that grouping. For instance, if we do 3 purees .. well everything is going to look like a puree even if altering colors. If we cube everything, that may end up being a little one dimensional as well. If we combine those two, the possibilities are nearly limitless.

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