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Help w/chemistry of WIO emulsion

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 

Looking for some assistance with a butter-based emulsion.  The ratio (roughly) is about 25% water-based ingredients to 75% butter.


Ideally, the resulting sauce/glaze should be as liquid as possible at room temperature,


I've tried Xanthan, pectin, lecithin, and a few specialty gums (like Ticaloid 210s from TIC Gums) and various methods of mechanical combination (blender, whisk, etc).  The sauce always breaks after a short time sitting.


I had some luck with techniques similar to beurre monté but, like that recipe, it breaks unless held at a higher than room temp.


The sauce/glaze is intended to be applied to warm meat (beef primarily) and would ideally either flow or finish melting once applied.


Thanks for the help!

post #2 of 9

From your brief description, it would seem temperature is the problem. Why at room temp? You say you want it to flow or finish melting at room trump. Compound butters will melt on warm meat but from your description of the problem it would seem that you are limiting the outcome by limiting the temperature range you will use it at. Temp will affect anything you do one way or anther. Can you be more specific about what you are trying to achieve? Beurre monte and beurre blanc are typical emulsion sauces used. Why would they not work for your situation? 

post #3 of 9
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the reply.  I would like to make it shelf-stable, resting in a small packet (unrefrigerated) that I could give out to friends/family as samples.


The idea would be to tear off a small tab and squeeze/pour it out.


I have made the typical compound butter "log" that gets refrigerated, but would like to pursue something more simple to distribute, store, and apply at the table.  The packet/container would be stored at room temperature.

post #4 of 9

     My first thought is to contact your state agency to find out their guidelines for producing such  product. Even if you don't intend to sell it, they should have some great advice for how to go about producing it. Here in NY that organization would be the Dept. of Agriculture and Markets.  There should also be a small scale producers group in your state whose members can provide you with a lot of great advice on the various thickeners and their appropriate use.  They may have meetings or conference in the near future you could attend to meet others in person. The State agency should have all the contact info you need. 

Some one near you has already done this. You just need to locate them. Getting a proper, stable emulsion is only your first problem. 

Here's the second one. 

     Here in NY we also have Cornell University and their Cooperative Extension programs designed specifically to help people  in your situation. Your state or a nearby one most likely has a university with a  similar program. Shelf stable in a sealed packet kept at room temperature will require some form of pasteurization or other treatment to kill pathogens and promote long shelf life or perhaps some special additives or perhaps vacuum sealing as well to inhibit and prevent bacterial growth.  No matter what your method is for making the product, you definitely don't want to risk serious illness or death for anyone who eats it. The small scale producers and your state agency will help you avoid that. This will add more time to your development time line but will be well worth it. Just because you aren't planing on selling it does not mean you are not obligated to follow production and sanitation guidelines to insure your product remains healthy as well as tasty. 

post #5 of 9
Thread Starter 

Thank you for that informative and well written reply.   I actually have contacted most of the universities here in the San Diego area.  I have also contacted several food additive manufacturers, gum producers, and food packaging/distributing companies.  All told, I've sent nearly 160 emails and left countless phone messages. 


The REALLY annoying thing is that not one person has responded.  It's really really strange.  I even resorted to contacting food development companies like Mattson and PTM to offer payment for services rendered.  I don't have a bunch of money to throw at this, but it's more a mission at this point.  Unbelievably, they (Mattson/PTM) forwarded me to one of their "specialists" voicemails.  No call back!  I deal with customer service daily, and know I'm being polite to all these people so it's rather frustrating.


I also have a friend (Lead Scientist) at the USDA, and he has made inquiries with several colleagues.  None of them take products past the lab and typically don't deal with quantities less than 'gallons'.


At this point I will take any somewhat reliable contact and pursue it. If you think contacting Cornell's Cooperative Extension for a referral in San Diego is a possibility, I'm totally game.


I'm not even worried about the packing aspect right now.  I'd just like a stable emulsion, and I'd be a happy camper.  I can work on the other stuff later.


As far as small scale producers locally, perhaps you can provide a more lucrative search term than I've been using.  The best results so far have been from "food product development," but that usually gets me companies like Mattson.


Thanks for the help.  This has been more communication from someone with insight than I've received from the 160 emails and phone calls sent.

post #6 of 9

I would absolutely call the NY Ag and Markets. If necessary, tell them you might move to NY. I don't think they care anyway and you might be able to find some things on their website. Cornell Cooperative extension is always pleased to help people, I assume from anywhere. Or they will know who you could contact. Also UC Berkeley would probably have info. 

Contact the local health dept, Tell them you are making this and want the inspection, production regulations, etc. they will tell you that you can't  according to The law, subsection 2.21, article b. of the California health code. Then the local library can get you the actual print of the law. 

I'll do a bit more research on my end and get back to you. 

A thought about your extensive emails so far.  Years ago I was in an Eagles Hardware (now Lowes). Standing in the far back right corner of the store, I pressed the Help button twice, waiting ten mnutes between presses. Then after a total of twenty minutes waiting for "help" from the Help button, I lit up a cigarette. An employee showed up in less than a minute. "So apparently the Help button doesn't work but you showed up quick enough for the cigarette. Now that you're here, I need some help". 

Your next email could start with "I am attempting to steal your product called " " and would like your help" .

Off the top of my head, it's called "The Small Scale Food Producers Association". But I'll check on that and get back to you. I greatly enjoy research so this should be fun. 

post #7 of 9 Small scale food processors

post #8 of 9
Thread Starter 

Lol, "I'm attempting to steal your product."  That actually sounds like something I would do.  I guess I've become more polite as I age, luckily for them.  My last email to Mattson was something to the effect of, "Since you can't be bothered with returning my phone calls, I assume you cannot take on any new projects.  I will take my Kellogg's sponsored product to your competitor and see how busy they are."  I actually didn't use "Kelloggs" but should have...


Thanks for the quick response on small scale producers.  That link appears to be a Canadian organization, but I can see if the have a U.S. referral.  San Diego appears to be void of food development companies, but I will find someone if it kills me!


Really appreciate the help.

post #9 of 9

  Food Processors Expo. February 18 and 19th 2015, in Sacramento.  A bit far off but the website is pretty good. is the California League of Processors web site. They have a link to the expo. I'm sure someone will have some info. or a contact.

Also there is   San Diego Cottage foods is dedicated to helping people like yourself. 

Once you've done some more investigating and identified or clarified your search, if you want to re write some emails and would like some feed back on them before sending them, I'd be happy to review. I have a BA in journalism and am pretty good at asking polite but pointed questions that will elicit a response. 

Also, if you haven't done so already, you might look at some shelf stable products out there on the grocery shelves with similar packaging to what you want and see what ingredients they have in them. 

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