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Genoise recipe. - Page 2

post #31 of 48

@Fablesable, well I have family in one country and gracious in laws in another. Might be a good excuse to go as soon as air fares come down. I know Petals will probably be in.

 

I'm trying to track down one of my mentors. He's running around France right now. He's probably 75 by now, but still active. He will be able to answer this question for sure. I don't usually throw around names, but you might have heard of him. Ives Thuries. Hope I have an answer soon.


Edited by panini - 10/28/14 at 7:31am
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post #32 of 48


@panini  Yes.....I have definitely heard of Yves Thuries!! lol  Can't work in this field for as long as we have and not heard of him. That is very cool that you had him for a mentor!! Such a wonderful man....I had the honour to meet and gab with him for a bit when I was living over there. I am definitely sure he would know a thing or two about what we are talking about! So rare to have a master craftsman such as Monsieur Thuries as your mentor......that is an amazing part of your journey. :bounce:

 

Sorry for the delay as I just arrived home from the shop :) 

post #33 of 48

Ok I found the actual inventor of the Génoise, and yes he's Italian and made the cake for the Spanish Court.

Giovanni Battista Cabona

This french reference talks about many variations of génoise:

http://www.undejeunerdesoleil.com/2013/04/reussir-la-genoise-pan-di-spagna.html

Génoise (beaten eggs, sugar and flour only) no cooking also called pan di Spagna (bread of Spain?!)

Biscuit Génoise: using a bain marie to heat the eggs and add butter

Pain de gêne: beaten eggs and almond paste

 

English reference naming Giovanni Battista Cabona

http://tiramisustory.com/en/sponge-cake-the-origins-of-the-most-popular-dessert-base-and-other-interesting-facts/

 

There are plenty of Italian website that talk about Giovanni but my Italian is quite rusty (wink!).  For all know he could be a ballet danser...

 

This said, I retract my French connection bit (for lack of references).  I still hesitate only because if the name génoise is used in French and in English, I suspect it's French origin otherwise it would be called Genoa sponge or a more Italian name in English but my reasoning may be flawed...

 

Luc H.

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post #34 of 48

@Luc_H,

My French is as rusty as your Italian. I did browse quite a few French sites referring to this. Thanks for you site. I'm going to enlist my darling

wife to go over a few of these site with me. not to disagree with you but feel comfortable with my answer. I know it's a small point but my OCD always kicks in.

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post #35 of 48

Like I always say to each their rust and OCD... (wink)

 

Luc H.

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post #36 of 48

Siduri might be reading this and having a good laugh ! 

 

It has been a terrific thread .

Petals
Réalisé avec un soupçon d'amour.

Served Up
(165 photos)
Wine and Cheese
(62 photos)
 
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Petals
Réalisé avec un soupçon d'amour.

Served Up
(165 photos)
Wine and Cheese
(62 photos)
 
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post #37 of 48
Thread Starter 

Experiment results so far. 

Recipe used limited to 

4 eggs 

1/2 cup sugar

1 Cup Cake Flour

tsp of Vanilla

 

 Second batch I added

Pinch of salt. 

 

Until I get technique down, I'll keep it simple with these ingredients. I discovered I need a new thermometer for egg temperature. 

Getting them to the right heat level is important for maintaining air loft. Continued whipping doesn't help if the eggs aren't hot enough. Back and forth over the water bath until the eggs maintain the ribbon effect. 

     To keep the bowl off the water while whipping, a splatter screen placed over the water bath is very helpful to rest my arm while whipping the eggs.  

Egg aroma while baking, lessens as the cake cools. 

      Setting up miss en place takes the longest. Have the pan buttered and floured before you begin making the batter. Once everything is ready, the process is pretty quick. The cake bakes in about ten minutes. 

I have a set of three cake pans 8, 10 and 12 inch. First cake baked in 10 inch. Second in 8 inch. First was fine but spread the batter a bit thin for slicing into layers. More bulk in the 8 inch. 

     Next batch I'll be separating the eggs and whipping separately to see how that works. 

Maybe a little butter as well. 

     Working on a coconut frosting for when they cool. Just because I have a lot of coconut sitting around. 

Watching the process has been fascinating. Have to find others to help eat all the cakes though. 

     Oh, and I'm glad to see everyone enjoying the thread. It's been fascinating reading all your contributions. 

I think genoise is now my favorite kind of cake.

More when I have it. 

post #38 of 48

@chefwriter,

I tyhink separating the eggs and whipping separately will be taking a left of the road.:eek:

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post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post

@chefwriter
,
I tyhink separating the eggs and whipping separately will be taking a left of the road.eek.gif

Being on a road trip at this time I can definitely verify that sometimes taking a left can be disastorious indeed.
But then again you never know.
You may find that perfect jewel of a B and B or maybe a gorgeous mountain overlook not marked on any maps.
But of course a flat tire is not out of the question either lol.

mimi
post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

@chefwriter,

I tyhink separating the eggs and whipping separately will be taking a left of the road.:eek:


agree!

 

Luc H.

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post #41 of 48
Thread Starter 

The idea to separate the eggs came from a book I own called Four Star Desserts by Emily Luchetti. 

6 eggs, separated. 

1 1/2 cup granulated sugar

1/2 tsp salt

1 tsp vanilla 

1/4 cup hot water

4 TB unsalted butter, melted

1 cup all purpose flour. 

Mix yolks, 1 cup sugar, salt and vanilla.

whisk on high till thick, on medium speed add hot water, scrape sides, return to high speed, 

whip till thick. Fold in flour then butter. 

Whip egg whites on medium till frothy, Increase to high 

add remaining 1/2 cup sugar. whip till stiff.

Fold into batter. 

I paraphrased a bit for brevity but that's essentially it. 

 a 11 by 17 by 1 inch pan is called for but I don't see why I can't use a different pan. . 

The recipe is called Vanilla Genoise. 

Separating the eggs and folding in the whites separately would only seem to enable more air to be incorporated, making a lighter, fluffier end product, but it would still be a genoise, no? 

post #42 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefwriter View Post
 

Separating the eggs and folding in the whites separately would only seem to enable more air to be incorporated, making a lighter, fluffier end product, but it would still be a genoise, no? 

You're right on the more air bit but a génoise uses whole egg (historically speaking).

Separating the eggs will give more volume but also larger alveoles.  The cake will be too airy (sponge cake like)

If the eggs are whipped whole into ribbons (and cooked to retain the air) then the crumb is tighter yet still light.  The difference is subtle but the resulting génoise is more flavourful with each bite and the tight air weave help soak up syrups without becoming soggy .  In French, they refer to the génoise as more wafer/cookie like than sponge cake like. 

(That is my interpretation of my research).

 

Luc H.

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post #43 of 48

@chefwriter,

I will change my comment from taking a left, to taking a right and then on the service road to a traditional sponge.;) I also just glanced at the formula you posted. It's hard for me to scale down in my head now that I'm old, but it looks to me like a lot of sugar. If you feel like playing, I would cut the sugar by a 1/3 and use milk instead if water.:eek:

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post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc_H View Post
 

You're right on the more air bit but a génoise uses whole egg (historically speaking).

 In French, they refer to the génoise as more wafer/cookie like than sponge cake like. 

(That is my interpretation of my research).

 

Luc H.

@ Chefwriter : That is the first time I see water being used for it.

 

@ Panini :I agree with you on the sugar and milk. Maybe there was an error when Chefwriter posted. If it is not, that is alot of sugar.

 

@ Luc: I hate using the word "authentic" but I have always believed that it was exactly that, wafer/cookie type cake. There is a fine line that should not be crossed over here. IMHO

Petals
Réalisé avec un soupçon d'amour.

Served Up
(165 photos)
Wine and Cheese
(62 photos)
 
Reply

Petals
Réalisé avec un soupçon d'amour.

Served Up
(165 photos)
Wine and Cheese
(62 photos)
 
Reply
post #45 of 48
Thread Starter 

I am now waiting for the cake to cool off. No, there was no mistake in the recipe as posted.

I used the recipe as written. As soon as it cools off, I'll cut in in half and check the crumb. 

Okay, I couldn't wait. Softer and more tender than the first one. A bit sweeter and more cake like flavor, not as eggy. .

The alveoles are definitely bigger in places but not throughout the entire cake. This version is, as I said, more tender without the "pull" of the earlier version. I probably did not mix it as thoroughly as I should have but it baked up just fine. I managed to split it horizontally and will frost it in the morning. At least what's left.  

I can see why the first whole egg recipe would be better suited for adding syrups and liqueurs while this one would most likely not be able to hold up with the added moisture. 

I am fascinated most of all that using the same ingredients in a different way can have such a profound effect. 

I'll try a third version tomorrow. 

post #46 of 48

A lot of folks don't like the egg taste, given that this cake doesn't have it , is a good thing.

 

I would like to try this recipe when I have a chance. I am looking forward to your next test cake.

Petals
Réalisé avec un soupçon d'amour.

Served Up
(165 photos)
Wine and Cheese
(62 photos)
 
Reply

Petals
Réalisé avec un soupçon d'amour.

Served Up
(165 photos)
Wine and Cheese
(62 photos)
 
Reply
post #47 of 48
Thread Starter 

Latest cake was a jelly roll using the Joy of Cooking recipe for Hot-milk sponge cake. This calls for the addition

of baking powder as well as the addition of hot milk and butter added at the end.

     The first one I baked for too long, about twenty minutes, coming out too stiff for rolling. Same recipe second

time only for ten minutes, came out very rollable. I didn't get as much lift as anticipated out of the baking powder addition. When cooked,

the cake was about 1/2 inch thick, the recipe amount as written was spread out on a standard half sheet pan.

Certainly a larger batch may fill more of the pan and result in a thicker cake but I will try the next one with no baking powder to see what happens. 

     Second one had a yellow appearance with a distinct egg aroma but when filled with ganache, rolled and frosted, the egg flavor was not noticeable. 

By the way, I ended up bringing it to a party as a buche noel, or yule log on a sliver platter surrounded by meringue mushrooms. It was a big hit. I filled it with a 

Grand Marnier ganache and covered with an almond paste chocolate frosting. Once the cake is rolled and frosted, the transition to a "log" takes only a minute. Cut an end off and

rest it on top, frost it to make a "branch". Scrape with a fork to make a bark like appearance. I dusted it with coconut and powdered sugar for snow. And I forgot how easy and fun meringue mushrooms are to make. 

     

     One interesting resource for knowledge was "The Patissier's Art" by George Karousis, "Master Chef of the Sea Fare Inn". In the section on sponge cake 

he refers to sponge cake making as either Hot method (genoise) or Cold method (chiffon sponges). Hot meaning whipping the whole eggs and sugar over heat, then away from heat until cold, then adding flour.  Cold is to separate the eggs, whipping yolks and sugar without heat, whipping whites and sugar and folding the meringue in next, then adding flour.

Perhaps most interesting is that he calls for bread flour while virtually all other recipes have identified cake flour. It is perhaps important to add that all his recipes are in professional amounts, often by pounds, Although intended for a professional audience, the book has many beautiful color photos. 

     

     Research on this topic reminded me how much confusion I find with trying to follow the naming process people use.  It was more instructive for me to focus on the importance of technique and preparation involved. As noted in an earlier post, many of the variations in recipe are related to relatively small changes in the desired end product.  A half cup of this or that did not make enough of a difference to justify calling the end result something else although many recipes do. In all the cakes made thus far, the success or failure of the cake regardless of recipe depended on my ability to be adequately prepared with equipment and ingredient layout, pre heated oven, and proper performance of technique.   Separating the whites and yolks had the most noticeable effect of virtually eliminating the eggy aroma and flavor, but not enough of a difference for me to consider I had made an entirely different style of cake. 

I also learned that the term biscuit, when referencing this style of cake, is a french term not to be interpreted in the manner Americans use the word biscuit. Still a sponge or genoise, simply a different name that doesn't seem to translate well.  

     The next experiment will involve making a gluten free version for a Thanksgiving guest. 

post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefwriter View Post
 

Experiment results so far. 

Recipe used limited to 

4 eggs 

1/2 cup sugar

1 Cup Cake Flour

tsp of Vanilla

 

 Second batch I added

Pinch of salt. 

 

Until I get technique down, I'll keep it simple with these ingredients. I discovered I need a new thermometer for egg temperature. 

Getting them to the right heat level is important for maintaining air loft. Continued whipping doesn't help if the eggs aren't hot enough. Back and forth over the water bath until the eggs maintain the ribbon effect. 

     To keep the bowl off the water while whipping, a splatter screen placed over the water bath is very helpful to rest my arm while whipping the eggs.  

Egg aroma while baking, lessens as the cake cools. 

      Setting up miss en place takes the longest. Have the pan buttered and floured before you begin making the batter. Once everything is ready, the process is pretty quick. The cake bakes in about ten minutes. 

I have a set of three cake pans 8, 10 and 12 inch. First cake baked in 10 inch. Second in 8 inch. First was fine but spread the batter a bit thin for slicing into layers. More bulk in the 8 inch. 

     Next batch I'll be separating the eggs and whipping separately to see how that works. 

Maybe a little butter as well. 

     Working on a coconut frosting for when they cool. Just because I have a lot of coconut sitting around. 

Watching the process has been fascinating. Have to find others to help eat all the cakes though. 

     Oh, and I'm glad to see everyone enjoying the thread. It's been fascinating reading all your contributions. 

I think genoise is now my favorite kind of cake.

More when I have it. 

For me, my genoise tend not to rise enough.  So far from what someone else with the same issue was told, is not to flour the pan, just grease.  Something to do with the batter not having something to hold onto.  With nothing to hold onto the cake does not rise as much and therefore you end up with flatter cake - not what I want.

I have not made a genoise since learning about this to confirm.

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