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Old school vs. 'New' school chefs

17K views 80 replies 23 participants last post by  rocknrollcat 
#1 ·
Got into a heated, yet jovial discussion with the crew about old school versus the 'new' school of chefs and cooks. The talk evolved from the case for/against going to culinary school, needing to know the classics, etc. So, I was wondering.... what do you think defines the newer cooking school of thought, what defines the old? It isn't a black and white issue, but several shades in between. Interested in what you think.
 
#2 ·
Greetings and Salutations!

I have been classically trained in french cuisine. I am always in learning mode ready to pick up a new technique or idea.

I have no idea what they are teaching culinary students today. They don't teach the classics apparently.

Some don't understand basic french culinary terms,some don't know the Mother sauces.

They seem to favor all the modern techniques like molecular gastronomy etc.

I don't get it. I favor learning the classics and learning to train your palette,learning authentic cuisine,and seasoning your food.

Then go ahead and explore all you want,as long as you are grounded in what good food should taste like.

Just my humble thoughts.
 
#4 ·
Most molecular gastronomists I know are classically trained, but there are really only a few in my city (sadly).

To me I look at what dues have been paid. I don't think formal training is necessary but I do believe it is a huge asset. You have to be fairly dedicated to be self taught, and alot of people in general lack the drive to really learn foundational skills and theory.

There are alot of fairweather fans in this industry who will probably not be dedicating their lives to professional cookery.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Beef Noodles LOL!

For me its the use of mother sauces vs pan sauces made a la minute. As well as plating styles: stacked with ornate garnishes on gold plated plates vs minimalist dishes with lots of negative space on pure white plates.

Theres even discrepancies within the "new school." Thomas Keller being the Old New School, Daniel Humm New School and René Redzepi being the new New School where sauces are almost non-existent and the food is very much un-tampered with, i.e. were not even peeling the vegetables anymore.

I do see the celebrity chef *Icon* making a return much like your French monarch-ish types of the 70's and 80's... A book I was very much anticipating, that turned out to be a huge let down what with more info and glamour shots of the chef than the food itself...
 
#6 ·
Meh.... sooner or later "new school" will become "old school".

You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.  You gotta learn how to make a cold emulsion (mayo) before you can go hog wild with some kind of new-school cold emulsion.

Pan sauces vs mother sauces? Ummm... what do you deglaze the pan with?

How do you make a glace de viande if you can make a jus?
 
#7 ·
With the nmber of restaurants in this country which use prepackaged product, combined with the limited labor pool interested in kitchen work, It's harder to find people with well rounded knowledge gained from strictly working. If you can find that place, great, but they are more & more concentrated on the high end
 
#8 · (Edited)
When I read industry periodicals, all I ever read about are fast foods, fast casual, fast, fast, fast.

It's no wonder the culinary schools are gearing their education processes toward this part of the industry.

OTOH, I am also reading about the demise of fast food in our culture, and the re-introduction of basic well made foods that use locally grown and locally processed ingredients.

The food "police" would have you believe that eating in restaurants is bad for your health due to all the processed convenience products they use, however, it is all about those processed foods to begin with.

Culinary schools are keeping up with what the industry needs and wants.

Right now, our industry is all about giving the client what it wants, and in most cases, that is large portions, that don't cost a lot.

Hopefully the culinary industry is teaching it's future Chef's the need for more intelligent menu development, using local ingredients, when possible, smaller portions to offer, and keeping nutrition in the back of the mind as well.

The new school students of today will become the old school camp of tomorrow. It's a never ending cycle.
 
#9 ·
What about the mindset? Noticing the sense of entitlement creeping into the younger crew. Less work, fewer hours, more pay... but still the dream of restaurant ownership. Aree with @Chefross, it is certainly a never ending cycle... yesterday's new school is tomorrow's old school.
 
#10 ·
What about the mindset? Noticing the sense of entitlement creeping into the younger crew. Less work, fewer hours, more pay... but still the dream of restaurant ownership.
... I don't know if this is a fair generalization to be making. Do you work in a relatively modern fine dining restaurant? "Less work?" "Fewer hours?" "More pay?" Not sure about any of this...

:rolleyes:
 
#11 ·
Hi, @SpoiledBroth. Yes, it is definitely a generalization and I don't mean any offense with that. My point is, in the spirit of new vs. old, that there is (may be) a sense of wanting things to happen more quickly without dues being paid. It used to be the vertical climb to chefdom. Whereas it seems there is a good bit of skipping over dishwasher/prep/salad/sous chef responsibilities and jumping right to the head of the class. I am totally, 1000% percent in support of new energy wanting to tackle this industry. I love the energy and vitality of the younger crew wanting to do locally-cultivated products in the form of food trucks, for instance, as a venue. I think that is great mojo. I guess, my concern is that there may not be an appreciation of what it takes to get there rather than just expecting it to appear with little effort. History tells us: that which is easily gotten is easily lost.
 
#12 ·
I agree with you Jim. There is much needed youth needed in the industry without the entitlement and attitude.(what are they putting in the water?)

Just like everyone wants food and services fast,Those entering the industry want success ,fame, and fortune fast too.

What gets me is that people want all your knowledge,wisdom,techniques etc. to be given to them. Really?

Do you know how long it took me to acquire the what I have? Even those I apprenticed under told me they can't give me all the secrets

I have to begin my journey of learning for myself.
 
#14 ·
Chef Jim !

I blame the schools for setting young peoples mindsets. Some of them tell them "Oh when you graduate you will be the chef at ?" They don't tell them that you have to put in your time first.
 
#15 ·
Hi, @SpoiledBroth
. Yes, it is definitely a generalization and I don't mean any offense with that. My point is, in the spirit of new vs. old, that there is (may be) a sense of wanting things to happen more quickly without dues being paid. It used to be the vertical climb to chefdom. Whereas it seems there is a good bit of skipping over dishwasher/prep/salad/sous chef responsibilities and jumping right to the head of the class. I am totally, 1000% percent in support of new energy wanting to tackle this industry. I love the energy and vitality of the younger crew wanting to do locally-cultivated products in the form of food trucks, for instance, as a venue. I think that is great mojo. I guess, my concern is that there may not be an appreciation of what it takes to get there rather than just expecting it to appear with little effort. History tells us: that which is easily gotten is easily lost.
Ok, I get the paying dues, to a certain extent. We all know you don't need to have been a potwasher to run a kitchen! The thing is, you're assuming that any "new school chef" doesn't have perennial skills or technique or theory... I supposed I should mention we're not quite at rejecting french cooking where I live, all the upscaled places have run savoury beignets as a special in the last few months, and reading the menus you can see the occasional knod to classical french cooking. They all change their menus on a weekly if not daily basis. Yes, they're all using immersion baths and foams and trendy ingredients... The thing is, none of these are turnkey solutions. They're not ordering in confit legs from whatever specialty distributor and warming them through, they age their own meat, everything EVERYTHING (vinegar, brioche hamburger buns included) is made on site-- it's insane.

At least, in my city, I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I was once of the same school of thought by the way, but if you go actually stage in one of these kitchens you'll see it's not as much of a shortcut as you may think. And for what its worth a few of the self-financed upscale places in town are notable for paying the lowest wages (including to its' sous). We have a bit of an inverse situation here where fast casual chefs can make 50, 60k a year without being able to make a roux. That's what I hate.
 
#17 ·
I would think that it would be some chefs teaching the classes in culinary school that might be contributing to any ideas about immediate success and any semblance of glory from working in the kitchen.

At my school, St. Philip's College, all of the chefs in the program that I met and learned under went out of their way to emphasize the tedium of the kitchen. One in particular throughout the year made sure that all of the students knew that it was hot, wet, backbreaking, sometimes bloody work.

At the beginning of my first semester, first day of Intro to Cooking, he said that if anyone of the students in the class was inspired to be a cook with the hopes of being a chef quickly and getting a tv show, that culinary school might not be the best idea for them. He said that it might be a good idea to just find a job in a kitchen and go from there.

If there are culinary students and graduates under the impression that school will get them a higher wage and notoriety, immediately, it would be wise for them to look at all of the graduates of any other school of any other discipline and see how that's going...
 
#18 ·
@chefedb - I agree with you... too many empty promises. So the question has to be asked: does school contribute to the 'new' thinking?
My personal feeling is that (culinary)schools would be very, very, very different if they would follow one simple rule:

-Don't accept students that don't have at least 1 year working experience in a food service enviroment

This could be in any capacity--dishwasher, prep cook, what ever.
 
#19 ·
My personal feeling is that (culinary)schools would be very, very, very different if they would follow one simple rule:

-Don't accept students that don't have at least 1 year working experience in a food service enviroment

This could be in any capacity--dishwasher, prep cook, what ever.
I don't know, I went to culinary school back in the dark ages before the proliferation of the diploma mills of today. Some of the best students turned out to be people that had never worked in restaurants before. Conversely some of the worst students were those with the most experience. Even so, I still strongly advise people to work in the industry before attending culinary school. To me it only seems to make good sense.

A free market society by it's very nature pretty much insures people get what they ask for, however this is not exactly the same thing as getting what they want. The guests want bigger portions, better food, and cheaper prices. The employees want shorter hours, more pay, to be a chef right away. What both don't realize is that what they are asking for is the demise of the small independent fine dining restaurant. I live in a small rural county. 15 years ago there were 3 or 4 such establishments. Now there is 1.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I look at earlier generations as being entitled in the fact that our government is so bloated alm the young people back then with any brains were given a " career". All the new school gets is a job, if they are lucky.

Doing the best you can, thats all I ask out of anyone. Only floater I ever admired is Jaromir Jagr.


Every profession has this dynamic. Sure glad I didnt pick the tech field, they have kids coding in grade 2 now!

So, in a nutshell, I look at the " schools" of thought as generational gaps. Age. Not really in terms of culinary prowess or paths or anything like that. Everyones path is different, always has been that way, always will be. There is no " school".

Edited heavily haha.
 
#21 ·
" I don't have a credit card and no my parents can't pay either because they refuse to pay for my culinary career because it's not a real job to them. So if anyone can help me out that would be much appreciated."
-AStevens

This sums up old school thought. And new school reality.
The old school can be proud of the "pan"demic we are experiencing.
 
#22 ·
Back when I went to college in the late 70's there was a class that was an introduction to the restaurant world.

It was taught (??) by a hardened veteran of the industry.

The class was basically horror stories about life in the restaurant world back then.

And back then, these WERE horror stories, enough so, that the class went from 300 or so initially down to 50 or so by semesters' end.

The instructor managed to weed out a couple hundred "wanna bees" before these people made the mistake of their lives.

For me.........the new culinary graduates of today are not all created equal. I see faces right out of college that have some basic skills but the one thing that bothers me is the attitude.

For me.........If a young brand new employee is not willing to do whatever it takes, and shows earnest instead of conceit, I'm happy.

As we Chefs always try to re-enforce, it is that they will never ask an employee to do something they themselves, wouldn't do, and that includes cleaning toilets.,
 
#23 ·
This is an interesting thread but there is one thing I am not quite sure on, what are talking about when we say Old and New school? Cooking styles? Work ethic? Expectations of career? View of what customer services means?

These, among other things, have all evolved or shifted but I do not think that they have changed in lock step.

It's not just a change in chefs either, there are massive shifts in restaurant culture, not to mention dinners.

Many of us have commented on the idea that chefs desire some degree of celebrity. I personally haven't seen much of this, but celebrity culture is a little less pronounced in Canada. But I have seen ripple effects on customers, and even worse, owners. Customers making comments are frequently written full of jargon and bizarre and usually false observations. I don't even mean bad reviews either, some of most glowing reviews I have had were so wildly off base on facts that I wondered just how drunk the reviewer was when they ate.

The other side of of the fame seeking that I see more frequently is younger cooks being heavily motivated by tell all books like Kitchen Confidential. To a certain segment of the population they take the wrong lessons. "I like cocaine and being a macho jerk! This is the life for me!"

Anyway, this is very interesting, let's keep it going.
 
#24 ·
This is an interesting thread but there is one thing I am not quite sure on, what are talking about when we say Old and New school? Cooking styles? Work ethic? Expectations of career? View of what customer services means?
All of the above. I was hoping somebody would ask this! I think the old/new schools of thought different in exactly all the areas you mentioned. Cooking style, for instance, is just one aspect. Longevity. Pay expectations. Training. Yes, an enlightening thread. And grateful for that.
 
#25 ·
Well then, let's clarify 'old school' vs. 'new school' shall we (for those who are having a bit of difficulty with the 2)

Old school....the Chef is an alcoholic,

yells,

throws things,

has anger issues,

treats employees with the least amount of respect and works them as if they were slaves instead.

This Chef also deliberately sabotages his/her staff just for the hell of it.

New school....the Chef doesn't need to tell everyone he's in charge, his demeanor says it all.

He is organized and treats his staff as equal peers.

He develops a mentor attitude and displays nothing but the most professional manner in all things.

His staff is eager and willing to follow him in all things.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I feel the "new school" is a direct result of technology and media. One can gather just about any type of information or reference at their fingertips.

We did not have this in the "old school". While learning in Europe 40+ years ago it was so much different. If I knew  I was going to see a choux paste or poached eggs the next day I had to make

certain I saw it or it would be a while before I might see it again. Yes, I walked to the bookstore and looked through cookbooks until they kicked me out, but it wasn't the same thing.

just sayin
 
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