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how to make Bone/broth from Turkey bones .

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

have a collection of these bones in the freezer, some roasted and some raw. I want to make a healthy Bone broth . First of all, do I need to roast the raw bones? Then how would you proceed?

I know I would use aromatic vegetables and apple cider vinegar but what is the best process and time of cooking .with beef or pork I go 20 hours.I know it is much shorter with birds.

 

 

thank's

AB  

post #2 of 19

Thaw and throw them in the stock pot as they are.  They don't all have to be roasted.  Add onions, garlic, carrots, celery, leek, bay leaf, a tsp of tomato paste, bay leaf, thyme, peppercorns. Three hours should be enough.

 

I have no idea what role vinegar plays, I've never heard of that.  I made beef broth in 6hrs.

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post #3 of 19

Roasting them adds a layer of flavor over raw turkey boiled. It is optional and if you want  a lighter colored stock starting with raw is better. No clue on the vinegar, never add it to stocks... time wise 2-3 hours is plenty, by then any cartilage will have started breaking down and infusing into the stock.

 

I reduce my stocks by 3/4 then freeze in ice cube trays. Pop the cubes out and drop them in a ziplock baggie and into the deep freeze. Need to boost a soup or gravy grab however many cubes you think you need. If you reduce watch the amount of salt used or you will have a super salty result after.  My turkey stuffing uses this super concentrated broth as the liquid ingredient and the intense turkey flavor is what makes it really stand out.

post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post
 

Thaw and throw them in the stock pot as they are.  They don't all have to be roasted.  Add onions, garlic, carrots, celery, leek, bay leaf, a tsp of tomato paste, bay leaf, thyme, peppercorns. Three hours should be enough.

 

I have no idea what role vinegar plays, I've never heard of that.  I made beef broth in 6hrs.


In the beef bone broth Apple cider vinegar is very important in extracting more minerals and nutrients deep in the bone after 8 to 12 hours. I'm assuming that a little apple cider vinegar may help with Bird bones as well?

post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexbel View Post
 


In the beef bone broth Apple cider vinegar is very important in extracting more minerals and nutrients deep in the bone after 8 to 12 hours. I'm assuming that a little apple cider vinegar may help with Bird bones as well?

 

Like I said, no idea, I wouldn't do it.

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post #6 of 19

Very similar to what you want to do I posted a step by step photo article of how to make Pheasant broth here:

 

How To Make Pheasant Stock
By Nicko Posted 851 views 7 comments

P.S. I have never nor do I know of any of my chef friends ever adding vinegar to a stock. Standard time for any poultry stock is 3 hours no more. 

Thanks,

Nicko 
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Thanks,

Nicko 
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post #7 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post
 

 I have never nor do I know of any of my chef friends ever adding vinegar to a stock. Standard time for any poultry stock is 3 hours no more. 

Neither have I. On the other hand, a quick google search reveal all kinds of information on it! Interesting... I may try it next time: 

 

 

Quote:

One of the Biggest Broth Mistakes You Might Be Making: No Vinegar Soak

A vinegar pre-soak before applying heat ensures that minerals will be pulled out of the bones and into the stock.  If you skip it, you must cook the stock for much longer before you can get the same effect. Always soak cold bones with vinegar before you apply any heat.  If the bones are hot, the pores are closed and the vinegar can’t get in to work its magic. Use cold bones and soak with 2 Tbs vinegar to 1 gallon of water for chicken or a half-cup vinegar to one gallon for beef for one hour before you turn on the heat.

Source: http://www.intentionallydomestic.com/the-five-biggest-bone-broth-mistakes-you-might-be-making/

post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post
 

Neither have I. On the other hand, a quick google search reveal all kinds of information on it! Interesting... I may try it next time: 

 

 

Source: http://www.intentionallydomestic.com/the-five-biggest-bone-broth-mistakes-you-might-be-making/


french fries, your good for me .

 

Found this out from a youtube & some other sources . you never taste the vinegar it's not for taste it's just for maximum Health. And, It has no importance in stock. But when making a bone broth ( I differentiate ) I want  to experience and experiment with its medicinal reputation, which are renowned in the history of food and Health .


Edited by Alexbel - 1/15/15 at 12:08pm
post #9 of 19

The discussion of vinegar and broth has me wanting a nice bowl of hot and sour soup right now.

 

mjb.

Food nourishes my body.  Cooking nourishes my soul.
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post #10 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post
 

Very similar to what you want to do I posted a step by step photo article of how to make Pheasant broth here:

 

How To Make Pheasant Stock
By Nicko Posted 851 views 7 comments

P.S. I have never nor do I know of any of my chef friends ever adding vinegar to a stock. Standard time for any poultry stock is 3 hours no more. 


Thank you   Nicko   .  

 

Alex

post #11 of 19

@Alexbel You might be interested that many chefs have posted some great articles with photos on how to make stock.

 

 

How To Make White Stock
By ckoetke Posted 7513 views

 

How To Make Brown Stock
By ckoetke Posted 7436 views

 

Stock
By mvogel Posted 412 views
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Nicko 
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Nicko 
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post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post

 

Quote:

One of the Biggest Broth Mistakes You Might Be Making: No Vinegar Soak

A vinegar pre-soak before applying heat ensures that minerals will be pulled out of the bones and into the stock.  If you skip it, you must cook the stock for much longer before you can get the same effect. Always soak cold bones with vinegar before you apply any heat.  If the bones are hot, the pores are closed and the vinegar can’t get in to work its magic. Use cold bones and soak with 2 Tbs vinegar to 1 gallon of water for chicken or a half-cup vinegar to one gallon for beef for one hour before you turn on the heat.

Source: http://www.intentionallydomestic.com/the-five-biggest-bone-broth-mistakes-you-might-be-making/

Color me skeptical. 

 

The 2 T/Gallon of water is probably just enough to neutralize the common alkalinity of US tap water. From the sort of sites that espouse this, I'm not seeing the kind of support I find credible. 

 

The calcium claims for example. There's the well known trick of soaking a wishbone in vinegar. This makes the wishbone pliable so it bends instead of breaking when you wish on it. The common explanation is that the vinegar dissolved the calcium in the bone. But then why does the bone restiffen if allowed to dry outside the vinegar? It's not absorbing free calcium out of the air! So there's more going on here than the calcium claim explains.

 

Try this explanation instead: http://www.explorit.org/news/a-new-twist-to-wishbone-tradition  It's sucking out the carbon of the calcium carbonate, not the calcium.

 

 And as noted, most US tap water is somewhat alkaline. The amounts of vinegar in discussion here are not sufficient to the task claimed nor the chemistry assumed.

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post #13 of 19
If it only take 3 hours to extract everything from bones, why do most ramen broth recipes especially tonkotsu broth suggest cooking for 8 hours or longer? Is that just a waste of time, long held tradition, or are other reactions happening during the extended cooking? Many call for 12 hours or longer.
post #14 of 19

Beef bone stock gets better the longer it is cooked, I have used the crock pot and gone 24 hours! I am talking bare rendering bones that are mostly devoid of meat. Roast them to a dark brown then start simmering.

post #15 of 19

Ramen broth violates all the western premises of proper stock making. Ramen cooks want to emulsify the fat into the liquid. Western cooks want to remove the fat from the broth.  

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post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by autoredial View Post

If it only take 3 hours to extract everything from bones, why do most ramen broth recipes especially tonkotsu broth suggest cooking for 8 hours or longer? Is that just a waste of time, long held tradition, or are other reactions happening during the extended cooking? Many call for 12 hours or longer.

There are some other assumptions in this post I'd like to address separately from the Ramen question. 

 

Quote:
3 hours to get everything from the bones. 

Well, what does one mean by everything? Most contemporary western chicken stock instructions talk about 2 hours or so. Certainly you can find longer times particularly as in MaryB's slow cooker technique. Are we getting everything out of the bones in 2 hours? Of course not, there's still bones left. Everything the average casual cook wants from the bones?  That's probably closer to the mark for a 2 hour simmer in making chicken stock.

 

In poorer times, it was common to reboil the bones for a second stock. This was weaker and was heavily reduced after straining to be useful.  You'll  still find it done today too of course, but it's much less common than it once was. 

 

Beef stock is usually cooked longer than chicken for a couple of reasons. The bones are thicker and larger. More importantly beef bones are harder and less porous. In poorer times, the bones were broken down to get even more out of them. I'm taking an Anthro-archaeology class right now and the teacher was talking about the bones from an elk, deer or such are found broken down into 1/2 pieces in the middens. These fragments were boiled down until they could get nothing more from them.  Calorie intake was borderline enough that this was essential. 

 

So what is the cook trying to accomplish is where you find the answer to the question of did I get everything I want from the bones. 

 

Quote:
(ramen) ... 8 hours or longer? Is that just a waste of time, long held tradition, or are other reactions happening during the extended cooking?

There's certainly tradition in that technique. There is more fat extraction from the bone and some greater collagen extraction as well. Flavor concentration too from the reduction. This is about emulsifying the fat and getting more of that slippery texture to the broth from the collagen. Your more volatile flavor compounds tend to get driven off by the boil necessary to emulsify the fat so there's a trade-off. 

 

Pressure cooking the stock for Ramen would save a lot of time. There are pressure cooker versions of western stocks too, but they tend to be clouded by fat and such from the boil necessary to maintain pressure. 

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by phatch View Post

Ramen broth violates all the western premises of proper stock making. Ramen cooks want to emulsify the fat into the liquid. Western cooks want to remove the fat from the broth.  

Exactly why I don't mind cloudy white stock.
So rich and full of flavor.

mimi
post #18 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by phatch View Post
 

There are some other assumptions in this post I'd like to address separately from the Ramen question. 

 

Well, what does one mean by everything? Most contemporary western chicken stock instructions talk about 2 hours or so. Certainly you can find longer times particularly as in MaryB's slow cooker technique. Are we getting everything out of the bones in 2 hours? Of course not, there's still bones left. Everything the average casual cook wants from the bones?  That's probably closer to the mark for a 2 hour simmer in making chicken stock.

 

In poorer times, it was common to reboil the bones for a second stock. This was weaker and was heavily reduced after straining to be useful.  You'll  still find it done today too of course, but it's much less common than it once was. 

 

Beef stock is usually cooked longer than chicken for a couple of reasons. The bones are thicker and larger. More importantly beef bones are harder and less porous. In poorer times, the bones were broken down to get even more out of them. I'm taking an Anthro-archaeology class right now and the teacher was talking about the bones from an elk, deer or such are found broken down into 1/2 pieces in the middens. These fragments were boiled down until they could get nothing more from them.  Calorie intake was borderline enough that this was essential. 

 

So what is the cook trying to accomplish is where you find the answer to the question of did I get everything I want from the bones. 

 

There's certainly tradition in that technique. There is more fat extraction from the bone and some greater collagen extraction as well. Flavor concentration too from the reduction. This is about emulsifying the fat and getting more of that slippery texture to the broth from the collagen. Your more volatile flavor compounds tend to get driven off by the boil necessary to emulsify the fat so there's a trade-off. 

 

Pressure cooking the stock for Ramen would save a lot of time. There are pressure cooker versions of western stocks too, but they tend to be clouded by fat and such from the boil necessary to maintain pressure. 


Thanks phatch for the detailed explanation!  I forgot how completely different ramen pork broth is in mouth feel because of emulsified fat.  Definitely need to start experimenting with pressure cookers.  Way too many advantages.

post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by phatch View Post
 

Ramen broth violates all the western premises of proper stock making. Ramen cooks want to emulsify the fat into the liquid. Western cooks want to remove the fat from the broth.  

 

I have an admission - I just had real ramen last night for the first time in my life. In the past I've always had ramen from the little packet.  What took me so long to get around to this soup? It was quite an experience and the broth was a major revelation.  It was cloudy, and I was remarking how it felt very unctuous!  I think I'll be having ramen today too, and maybe tomorrow too.  

 

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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