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Is there an faster way to cool 15 Gal of hot Broth? - Page 2

post #31 of 51
The OP asked about 15 gallons of stock. For a fact it will not float in MY sink with MY stopper the way I do it it works. K thanks. all yer hydrostatic and condensation can go down the stopper. Fridge works too.
post #32 of 51


Fill a gallon plastic jug with H20 freeze it and its same thing, and you don't have to wash it throw it out

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #33 of 51


In any event the pot being on the floor is no good , it should be put in The Freezer  on top of a dishwashing rack so that cold air circulates around and under. Don't let health dept. see you put the pot on the floor it has to be 6 inches off the floor.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckallidon View Post  Milk isn't as affected because it is not as reactive as water. 

 

Water has a pH level of 7 which is neutral, meaning it has the same amount of acids and alkalis. Milk has a pH level of 6 which means it is 10x more acidic than water.

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post #35 of 51

Lets go back to the stock pot, shall we? 

 

You're about to empty the contents of a 40 qt kettle that's just below the boiling point.

 

If you're lucky and your kitchen has a plethora of 15-20 gall cooking pots, you empty the stock into them.  However, 99% of most kitchens empty their hot stock into the ubiquitous pickle/mayo bucket (sorry about that plastic leaching chemicals into the stock, ok?) You can't fill the bucket to the brim, or lifting and/or carrying the bucket would spill contents.

 

In the interests of cooling down stock quickly, the smart guy fills the bucket about half full.

 

Why?

 

As I said before the stopper in most sinks is about 12" high, thus, this is the maximum height of water in your sink.  If a full bucket of stock sits in a sink full of water, about half of the bucket is exposed to cold water, and about half is not. If you fill the bucket half full, most of the contents are exposed to cold water.  In other words, double the exposed surface area and therefore twice as fast.

 

If the level in your bucket is lower than the level of water in your sink, your bucket will float, just like every ship in the ocean.   

 

You can accelerate the cooling by adding ice to the water bath.  Plastic leaching chemicals into water or not, frozen milk jugs lobbed into the water bath ARE NOT exposed to the actual contents of the bucket. m'kay?  Frozen plastic jugs (ie water wands or the milk jug) are in the stock for less than 20 minutes.  But then again all potable plumbing lines-- commercial and residential--in the last or 15 years are plastic, as well as virtually every water bottle, milk jug, and 2 l soda container. But I digress here.

 

Cooling in the freezer is slower than the water bath method, because the container is NOT in contact with cold water, but rather cold air.  Ask your health inspector which method they prefer and the answer is unanimous, the water bath method becasue it so much faster.

 

At this point I need to caution you about over- stirring liquids that have a thin layer of fat on them that undergo temperature changes.  The odds of emulisfying the fat are fairly high, leaving you with a milky cloudy stock.  Maybe good for a ramen house restaurant, but not ideal for clear soups

 

If you have difficulty with my explanation of steam icing up the condenser coil, I ask you to get in touch with any hvac or refrigeration worker next time they come into your kitchen for their explanation.  It'll be the same, but they'll be glad to explain it to you 'cause they're charging your boss $75 /hr. 

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post #36 of 51
Splitting hairs here we are. Some good advice though. I have asked a few fridge techs and there response it not unaminius. Fact is my fridge isnt getting ice on the coil. Its a large fridge. Every day we put hot food in there to cool, sonetimes against my advice of water baths, regardless it does happen.

Overflow stopper is much higher than 12" im not sure probably only 18" or so in my kitchn, Im home atm mybe I'll check sometime. The question I reiterate is about 15 gallons not 40, although 40 split into two 20 in two sinks with overflows would be my advice as well. Just make enough tht you have buckets for lol. I have 16 gallon cambros for soups chowders and gravy, when they re full switch
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefedb View Post


Fill a gallon plastic jug with H20 freeze it and its same thing, and you don't have to wash it throw it out
to the 20l mayo bucket!

Not the same thing. Wand is much bigger than 1 gal and has a handle so you can stir, and it goes directly into the food. And is re useable, and is hopefully there ready to use when u need it.
post #37 of 51

I realize I may be going off-topic here, but this is valuable information to discuss.

 

Of course there's ice building up on your coil.  Every time you open the door warm air comes into the room.  Warm air contains more humidity than cold air, and it invariably sticks on to your coil forming ice.  This is why your refrigeration goes on a 20 min de-frost cycle every 8 hrs--to get rid of the ice.

 

As I said in my original post, if you're lucky (when putting in large amounts of hot stock in a walk in) the de-frost cycle will take care of this ice.  If you're not-- say you put in 20 gals of hot stock right after a de-frost cycle, or you open the door excessively on a hot day in addition to th hot stock cooling off, there will be too much ice forming on the coil for a regular de-frost cycle to handle.  Then the fans can't circulate the cold air properly and your temperature creeps up warmer and warmer

 

The point I want to make is that cooling off liquids  in smaller amounts in a waterbath is much quicker than putting it in the walk-in.

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post #38 of 51
Same point Im making. Good info here, summertime is haaaard on the fridges! I may install a mini split AC unit to cool off the Compressors. They fail every July.
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckallidon View Post
 


My question is what beer brewing though. American beers do not even have to list all their ingredients like say German beers.  They have all sorts of garbage in them.  Some of them are not really even brewed in the traditional sense.  I'm sure Budweiser would have EDTA and stuff like that in it if that was such as issue.  Or maybe breweries put something in so the metal doesn't react.  I don't know either way but I am curious about this, and what brewers do and do not use those. 


Home brewing with none of the chemical garbage! I did it for years and we used the coil type chiller for a long time then went to a counterflow chiller which was a pain to clean but worked much faster. Water jacket wrapped around the wort line, they work very well but no solids allowed! Murky cloudy in and clear cold wort out!

 

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefboyOG View Post

Same point Im making. Good info here, summertime is haaaard on the fridges! I may install a mini split AC unit to cool off the Compressors. They fail every July.


Wouldn't it make more sense and be cheaper to locate the compressors to an area with better ventilation so they can dump the heat more efficiently?

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post #41 of 51
Right now they are above the walkins and the crawl space gets very hot. There is a fan but it wasnt designed well. I think we are using new engineers maybe they will be of some help. I dont know how to go about moving them to an" area with more ventilation". The temp just needs to go down there is a critical point where they trip.
post #42 of 51
Common choices include rooftops and underground garages. Ive got mine mounted under a cement staircase that is open on 3sides. Remote compressors are common for virtually all supermarkets and mant convienience stores. Alot of the smarter kitchens have them too, not only will your rkitchen be cooler, but quieter too.
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post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

 

Water has a pH level of 7 which is neutral, meaning it has the same amount of acids and alkalis. Milk has a pH level of 6 which means it is 10x more acidic than water.

 

That is true.  10 times more acidic means 10x the quantity of moles H+/L H20.  H+ or H30+ does not react with everything.  More metals are above it than not in the reactivity hierarchy, a tool chemists use to predict replacement or double replacement/ red-ox rxns.  The pH or pOH is not a measure of reactivity, but can be guide for reactivity with what.  Solubility is the bigger issue.  Acids and bases always react to form a salt and water.  If there is more acid or more base, some will be left over.  A neutral pH, or pure water is very reactive.  Water is the universal solvent.  Most industrial chemical processes involve saturating water towards the desired direction of an equilibrium reaction they do not want to occur the other way.  Dissolved salts will buffer the solution to stop or slow a reaction from occurring.  Our saliva is about as acidic as milk.  Milk is water closer to saturation.  Solubility, molecular geometry and temperature are large influences on these difference.

 

pH or pOH is not a measure of general reactivity. It can be a measure of reactivity with what.  Pure water has neutral pH.  Tap water, most water, no.  Dissolved solids disrupts the equilibrium of water reacting with itself.  Each Liter of water has a portion that is an equal ration or H30+ to OH- that changes with temperature.  Add anything acidic to this mix, more of the conjugate base is freed up to react.  Add more base and the conjugate acid is freed up to react.  Milk is less reactive than water for the sake of the discussion than pure water, and tap water.  Stainless steel in fact corrodes with pure water.  Just at a rate so slow (molecular geometry makes it very difficult to happen, but it will) it is negligible.  Up the temp really high, you can see oxidation occur.  Water is the universal solvent.  It has a very unique molecular geometry that lends itself to this.  It is very polar in nature with a positive end and a negative end, and readily forms strong hydrogen binds, which attract electrons.

 

This is why metals and plastics readily add a taste to water, and substances like EDTA prevent this.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefboyOG View Post

The OP asked about 15 gallons of stock. For a fact it will not float in MY sink with MY stopper the way I do it it works. K thanks. all yer hydrostatic and condensation can go down the stopper. Fridge works too.

 

I was agreeing with you.  I think this condensation thing is true in theory, but I've worked in dumps that do not maintain their stuff properly and the cooling systems have never failed.  I don't think this guy has ever had anything fail on him from this.  We violate these laws on the daily and it's all good. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryB View Post
 


Home brewing with none of the chemical garbage! I did it for years and we used the coil type chiller for a long time then went to a counterflow chiller which was a pain to clean but worked much faster. Water jacket wrapped around the wort line, they work very well but no solids allowed! Murky cloudy in and clear cold wort out!

 


Is that coated with anything? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foodpump View Post
 

I realize I may be going off-topic here, but this is valuable information to discuss.

 

Of course there's ice building up on your coil.  Every time you open the door warm air comes into the room.  Warm air contains more humidity than cold air, and it invariably sticks on to your coil forming ice.  This is why your refrigeration goes on a 20 min de-frost cycle every 8 hrs--to get rid of the ice.

 

As I said in my original post, if you're lucky (when putting in large amounts of hot stock in a walk in) the de-frost cycle will take care of this ice.  If you're not-- say you put in 20 gals of hot stock right after a de-frost cycle, or you open the door excessively on a hot day in addition to th hot stock cooling off, there will be too much ice forming on the coil for a regular de-frost cycle to handle.  Then the fans can't circulate the cold air properly and your temperature creeps up warmer and warmer

 

The point I want to make is that cooling off liquids  in smaller amounts in a waterbath is much quicker than putting it in the walk-in.

 

That is faster.  But imagine if you put a sink in the walk-in!  FTW.

post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodpump View Post
 

 

Uh-huh..."milk is essentially water approaching it's saturation point"

 

Saturation of what? Beans? 98% beans and 2% water? Say 3.5% water for homo milk?

 

Look, two posts ago you were suggesting to ladle hot stock into sheet pans in the freezer, now you're telling me all about hydrostatic pressure and that all water in plastic bottles is poisonous.

 

Just take it easy for the next couple of posts, O.K.?


I'm sorry.  I stopped being a joker and tried being more serious.  I really did.  I'll go back to discussing the over-hyped merits of the santoku, or posting what my favorite burger is in lamer threads.  I'm used to chefs and cooks with senses of humor.  This is my last post bub.

 

The contraption of contraptions required ladling hot broth into hotel pan ice baths ON sheet pans in the freezer.  Way better idea than what you thought I said.  Of course ladling broth directly onto a sheet pan is madness!  But I have a new modification that is sure to please you and the people who liked it.  You put a zip up bakers cover over it, so most of the steam stays in the system as you work top to bottom, instead of hitting the coils.  Genius.

 

Saturation point of water bro.  Not like saturating a sponge.  Science parlance versus vernacular usage.  Saturation of what is suspended in it.  The saturation point is the point at which water will no longer dissolve solids and it or they have to come out of solution.  Keep dumping salt in a glass of water while stirring and you'll see it in action.  Each Liter of water only holds so much of a solute.  Each solute as a pure substance has a solubility constant of molarity (moles per Liter; moles being 2.022 x 10E23 particles or molecules) per degree kelvin that mathematically explains the rate at which something dissolves in water.  Milk is a mixture.  Naturally heterogenous.  It is mostly water.  Water is the solvent, fat, casein and other compounds are solutes.  All liquids can only hold so many moles of substances in solution per degree kelvin.  This is official chemistry.  That is why you can only put so much chocolate syrup per volume of milk without getting extra on the bottom.  You can however put more chocolate syrup in pure or tap water than the milk before this occurs.  This is why when your coffee or tea cool you get sugar crystals in the bottom of the cup.  That is why ice cold tap is clearer than hot tap.  Homogenous or not, milk is a mixture.  Homogenous or heterogenous, is based on intermolecular forces of different substances at play with each other.  That is why oil and water do not readily mix unless extra physics or chemistry is applied, but water and vinegar readily mix.  Water is a polar substance, vinegar is a polar substance, oil is non-polar.  Like dissolves like with liquid-liquid mixtures.  Homogenized milk is chemically and physically altered to form the colloid.  And milk is not 3.5% water.  How would that make sense?  My coffee table is probably more than 3.5 % water still.  Table salt is easily 3.5% water on a humid day lol.  Water is what everything is mixed into, it has to be at least 51% in theory, but that doesn't even work for small molecules like sugar or simple compounds like salt.  It is mostly water to have lipids and proteins in solution.

 

You do realize that most produce is more than 50% water bound up in fiber, right?  Even the epic Norwalk press juicer doesn't get it all.  Much remains chemically bonded and incorporated into crystalline structures of various compounds.  Wheat grass is mostly water but it has so much fiber that you cannot get a lot of it. 

 

And yes, plastics leech into everything.  BPA free or Nalgene just means it has one less leeching into it.  And yes, it is poisonous.  That is why Eastman chemical spent millions in court to get an injunction against releasing the results of independent testing of various products they have patents for.  Not like bigger than Rasputin dose arsenic poisonous.  More like lead paint poisonous.  Nevermind the hormone disruptive properties of many plastics and the statistical relationship between the decline in female fertility and male testosterone and the increased production of plastics in North America. 

 

 

I'm done.  Have a nice day.

post #45 of 51
Bye. Thanks for coming out.

Try to take it easy next time, we are here to learn and help. Same reason as you.
post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckallidon View Post
 

 

 

 

I'm done.  Have a nice day.

 

 

O k,  easily done.

 

But-tum... don 't let  the door hit you on the way out, eh?

 

I'll be taking apart your post later on tonight

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post #47 of 51
So the moral of the story is, never ever let your blast chiller konk out
post #48 of 51

Nope pure copper but nothing is in contact with it very long, hot flows in and cold flows out in 15-20 seconds

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mckallidon View Post
 

 

That is true.  10 times more acidic means 10x the quantity of moles H+/L H20.  H+ or H30+ does not react with everything.  More metals are above it than not in the reactivity hierarchy, a tool chemists use to predict replacement or double replacement/ red-ox rxns.  The pH or pOH is not a measure of reactivity, but can be guide for reactivity with what.  Solubility is the bigger issue.  Acids and bases always react to form a salt and water.  If there is more acid or more base, some will be left over.  A neutral pH, or pure water is very reactive.  Water is the universal solvent.  Most industrial chemical processes involve saturating water towards the desired direction of an equilibrium reaction they do not want to occur the other way.  Dissolved salts will buffer the solution to stop or slow a reaction from occurring.  Our saliva is about as acidic as milk.  Milk is water closer to saturation.  Solubility, molecular geometry and temperature are large influences on these difference.

 

pH or pOH is not a measure of general reactivity. It can be a measure of reactivity with what.  Pure water has neutral pH.  Tap water, most water, no.  Dissolved solids disrupts the equilibrium of water reacting with itself.  Each Liter of water has a portion that is an equal ration or H30+ to OH- that changes with temperature.  Add anything acidic to this mix, more of the conjugate base is freed up to react.  Add more base and the conjugate acid is freed up to react.  Milk is less reactive than water for the sake of the discussion than pure water, and tap water.  Stainless steel in fact corrodes with pure water.  Just at a rate so slow (molecular geometry makes it very difficult to happen, but it will) it is negligible.  Up the temp really high, you can see oxidation occur.  Water is the universal solvent.  It has a very unique molecular geometry that lends itself to this.  It is very polar in nature with a positive end and a negative end, and readily forms strong hydrogen binds, which attract electrons.

 

This is why metals and plastics readily add a taste to water, and substances like EDTA prevent this.

 

 

 

I was agreeing with you.  I think this condensation thing is true in theory, but I've worked in dumps that do not maintain their stuff properly and the cooling systems have never failed.  I don't think this guy has ever had anything fail on him from this.  We violate these laws on the daily and it's all good. 

 

 


Is that coated with anything? 

 

That is faster.  But imagine if you put a sink in the walk-in!  FTW.

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckallidon View Post
 

 

 

The contraption of contraptions required ladling hot broth into hotel pan ice baths ON sheet pans in the freezer.  Way better idea than what you thought I said.  Of course ladling broth directly onto a sheet pan is madness!  But I have a new modification that is sure to please you and the people who liked it.  You put a zip up bakers cover over it, so most of the steam stays in the system as you work top to bottom, instead of hitting the coils.  Genius.

 

I think this method merits discussion.

 

So we ladle hot broth into hotel pans, taking 3-4 times longer than it would to empty the contents into 2 or 3 buckets

 

Now we come to the genius part, a zip up baker's cover on the tray trolley.... 

The cover is intended to prevent "skinning" (or crust formation) on dough pieces, the cover effectively stops air movement--for bakers that is.  In a walk in freezer it would prevent the pans from cooling down properly and quickly.  That is to say, the stock would be held in the "danger zone" for a prolonged period of time.  Not good.

 

However the steam stays trapped in the baker's cover, where it turns to water droplets and forms rivulets on the bakers cover.  And where old gravity pulls it down, down on the freezer floor.  Where it turns to ice. Hopefully not freezing the trolley wheels to the floor, but definitely forming an ice sheet, so the next schmoe who trots in the freezer for a case of fries will wipe out and fall on his butt.

 

Now we have to transfer the stock from the hotel pans into something more practical--like a mayo bucket so it can be put away in the walk in cooler. Hopefully this doesn't take too long, and hopefully no stock is spilled.  Amount of labour spent on this method compared to a water bath method is almost two times, with the danger of the stock being kept in the danger zone, not factoring the time it takes to chip up and sweep away the ice on the freezer floor, mopping up any spills, or the extra time and energy used to wash all those hotel pans.  

 

By now most of the readers can gather that the person who came up with this "genius" idea has never worked in a commercial kitchens.

Good thing he's gone......

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post #50 of 51

Oh okay.  Makes perfect sense.  Thank you.  How much do you brew?  Do you know good books on the topic, I've seen some on Amazon but they all look the same. 

 

My dad used to make beer 30 years ago before it was cool, and I am actually looking into joining him in getting back into it.  It's a lot different now than how/when he did it.  I'll admit I know nothing practical about the process of brewing beer.  Only the chemistry.  A lot of microbreweries have popped up in my area, mostly huge successes, but I want to make one good beer to make on site and sell in my future restaurant.  Instead of bottling and distributing it, I want to make something good and be the only seller. 

post #51 of 51

Awwhhh! You said you were leaving, I though you meant it.  Maybe that was a "joke" too.

 

Nice long post though. Your writing style reminds me a lot of a hot head on the e-gullet forums who spouts a lot of science, doesn't understand how refrigeration works yet claims to have single-handedly replaced all the air conditioning in the Chrysler Bldg or some such, and insists all restaurant washrooms in Europe are free and open to the public... 

 

Like I said you and the guy from e-gullet have very similar writing styles and ways of thinking. And both of you have an aversion to cold water baths.

 

In any case I didn't invent the water bath method, nor did I invent ice wands, but they work, very well and very quickly.  They (waterbath and icewand ) are also endorsed by every health inspector I've met.  Why you don't acknowledge this method, why you don't realize the methods you describe take far too long, are messy and awkward, is a mystery. But it is clear you have never executed the cooling methods you describe.    

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