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Fermentation. Bread, yoghurt, sauerkraut, and about 1000 other things.

2K views 32 replies 9 participants last post by  oregonyeti 
#1 · (Edited)
Fermentation plays a huge part in so many foods and beverages. Yogurt, wine, sauerkraut, kimchi, Pickapeppa sauce, tabasco sauce and other chili sauces, soy sauce, southeast Asian fish sauces, raised bread, sake, beer, kefir, cheeses, miso, sour cream, and many others ...

I find it fascinating, because so many good things are a result and also because I like to learn more about how things work. I would like to learn more about the fermentation processes that happen, and the many things that are made with them. I would love to know the history behind them.

I know there are some people very knowledgeable on fermentation here. I would be happy to learn from them. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
 
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#7 ·
My simple entry of the grilled mushroom sandwich was primarily to point out how ubiquitous fermentation is in our everyday lives. People were saving food for a LONG time before vacuum sealers, freezers and refrigerators were available. Some little bugs and such are bad for us, some are REALLY good for us.

I remember when I first started homebrewing that my body had a bit of trouble adapting to the living yeast contained in the beer. It was a change for the better.

mjb.
 
#8 · (Edited)
My simple entry of the grilled mushroom sandwich was primarily to point out how ubiquitous fermentation is in our everyday lives. People were saving food for a LONG time before vacuum sealers, freezers and refrigerators were available. Some little bugs and such are bad for us, some are REALLY good for us.

mjb.
We are so used to it that we aren't always aware.
 
#9 ·
I don't have a good handle on the benefits entirely but in general "pro-biotics" are accepted to be good and even necessary to health.

We've formed a relationship through thousands of years of perhaps trial and error, such that our microbial friends that keep our meats, milks, and grains in a state of nutrition without the danger of spoilage are even necessary to help us in digestion of such things.

Sauerkraut naturally fermented.. fermented pickles, radishes, etc. They all carry along with them the benefit of the pro-biotics. It's tough to convince someone that something that would be assumed spoiled is not only safe, but even really good for you.

It's been said before that these preservation techniques were born out of necessity but in today's time we enjoy them largely for the experience of taste. I for one am glad that there was a time when this was needed, fermented/preserved products are one of my favorite ingredients!
 
#10 ·
I have done lots of different types of fermenting, from making beer to making yogurt to making sauerkraut and numerous types of pickles.  One of these days I am going to experiment with sourdough baking.

For making sourkraut I use a dry salting method where I rub salt into into the cabbage.  For this method I use 3 Tbs. of salt for every 5# of cabbage.  I also usually make a bit of brine just in case the cabbage doesn't throw off enough liquid to cover it by at least 1/2".

For my brine when doing various types of pickles I usually use 3Tbs + 1 tsp.  salt for every 2 quarts of water.  That gives me approximately a 3-3.5% brine solution.

Never use table salt for your brines as they contain iodine which can inhibit the growth of bacteria (a bad thing in fermentation) and the anti-caking agents can give an off flavor.

I use kosher salt for most of my fermentations.  If I purchase larger flake salt I will crush it up somewhat before measuring.  If you want to get really serious about it you should probably weigh your salt as measurements of different salts can weigh differently depending of the structure of the salt.  Various recipes call for different brine solutions, anywhere from 1.5-5%.  I, personally, like my standard brine which like I said above averages around 3-3.5%.  Much lower than that and you really risk bad bugs growing in your brine.  Higher than that is just too salty for me and not neccessary if you are making sure that all your equipment is meticulously clean.
 
#11 ·
Thanks, eastshores and Pete, lots of great info there.

I've made kimchi at home. The first time it came out great. The second time I used a little less salt and it didn't taste as good. I think Pete has explained why. And next time I'll use un-iodized salt.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Forgot to add this:

To get a 3% brine solution - for 2 quarts (64oz) of water, you will need to add 1.92 ozw of salt.

If you boil  your water to dissolve your salt you must make sure that the brine comes back down to room temperature before using it in your fermentation.
 
#13 ·
Great subject OregonYeti! Fermentation is such misunderstood and lost knowledge nowadays.

@eastshores yes the human microbiome is key to health. This recent TED talk is very interesting on this subject :



I have always thought that preparing and eating fermented foods was a way for our bodies to submerge itself and tame the microbial soup that surrounds us. Sourdough bread is a great example of a food that is made with location specific environmental microbes i.e. your home.

I regularly make kefir, yoghurt and sourdough bread. I've done beer, wine, cheese, sourcream, buttermilk, kumbucha, vinegar.

Not well known is fermentation is a key step in Vanilla bean manufacturing.

Luc H.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Very interesting video, Luc! Thanks for joining the conversation. I know you have a lot of years of experience with fermentation. If you can give some light on the organisms used for fermentation, the different environments they do well in, the foods and beverages made with the kinds of fermenting organisms, and how we can make the different processes work as we want them to - kind of asking a lot, but if you can give a general idea, I'd really like it.
 
#16 ·
Very interesting video, Luc! Thanks for joining the conversation. I know you have a lot of years of experience with fermentation. If you can give some light on the organisms used for fermentation, the different environments they do well in, the foods and beverages made with the kinds of fermenting organisms, and how we can make the different processes work as we want them to - kind of asking a lot, but if you can give a general idea, I'd really like it.
Ouch! that's a tall order for a web forum. I'm afraid it would require a very long post to cover just the basics (boring).

let me start with this intro in the hopes it generates questions:

fermentation is a generic term for using microbes to preserve food. Preserving means to extent the storage of perishable foods. At it's basics that means to prevent the food from making you sick which is accomplished by preventing pathogens from growing in the food.

Fermentation prevents the pathogens from taking hold by acidification of the food and/or by overcrowding the food called bioprotection.

fermenting microbes eat sugars to make acids i.e. lactose in milk to lactic acid in yoghurt, glucose in meat to fermented cured sausage, etc..

Microbes in fermented foods are very aggressive, they protect their turf like street gangs, by overcrowding the food they prevent other microbes like pathogens from taking hold i.e. bioprotection.

ex. cheese skin and all other unpasteurized fermented foods.

Fish sauce is a particular fermentation whereas the proteins are liquified with particular microbes that live comfortably in brine. Pathogens cannot tolerate high salt environment.

Other uses of fermentation is to create alcohol (obviously) and gaz bubbles as with beer, champagne and bread.

Alcoholic foods can be transformed to vinegar (acidification) using a different type of fermentation ex. hard cider to cider vinegar, rice wine to rice vinegar, etc...

Fermentation in other words is the process of spoiling food in a control fashion because it's kinda obvious that every fermented food was discovered by accident by tasting a spoiled food that didn't make you sick and kinda tasted good (the right microbes under the right circumstances).

Luc H.
 
#17 ·
A thought about water- I've been to some cities where there is a noticeable smell of chlorine. Mine doesn't and I seem to do ok with it.
I don't go out of my way to avoid my local tap water which is somewhat chlorinated, but I also usually boil my brine which will drive off most of the chlorine. I would avoid water though in which you can actually smell the chlorine as it can inhibit the microbe growth, both good and bad.
 
#20 ·
I was just talking to a local farmer this evening and the topic of fermented foods came up.  It seems to be a major trend right now with lots of people trying their hand at this old technique.
 
#21 ·
READ AT YOU'RE OWN RISK (potentially boring due to the presence of chemical formulas)

On the subject of making dried cured sausages, the fermentation process achieves 4 food preserving levels to protect the meat from spoiling badly:

1. acidification, as explained above lactobacilli bacteria consumes the sugar in meat (glucose) to lactic acid (mainly). it is often recommended to add sugar to the meat before fermenting

2. drying, as sugar is consumed the meat has less of a tendency to retain water and combined with the salt, the sausage dries up by evaporation

3. bioprotection, often the sausages are left to mold on the surface which prevents surface pathogen contamination.

4. curing, this is the most interesting part. Dried cured sausages don't use nitrite but nitrate to cure the meat because the culture contain bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrite which is essential to cure the meat. 

Nitrite (NO2) usually a sodium salt (NaNO2) is added to meat with a reducing agent (vitamin C, ascorbate or Erythorbate) to encourage a chemical reaction with myoglobine (the hemoglobine in muscle).  The compound is called nitroso-myoglobine a pink/red colour of cured meat.  This chemical prevents botulism.

when fermenting meat the NO2, a gas, often dissipates because of the long time in takes to cure the sausage.  The solution is to add a more stable chemical nitrate (NO3) in the form of saltpeter (KNO3) which is slowly converted by bacteria to NO2 which then makes the curing colour.

Luc H.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Another interesting quirk of fermentation is the dilemma of which came first, bread of beer?

The answer is not very clear since ancient Egyptian texts (hieroglyphs) depict both beer making and bread making often done together.  In reality both use the same basic ingredients except the process and portions, in particular water, differ.

Today beer is far different than bread because of the mashing (saccharification) step whereas the starch is converted to maltose and glucose, fermentable sugars, to make lot's of alcohol in beer  The naturally created enzymes in malted (sprouted) barley is used to accomplish this step.  I have not heard that the Egyptians used barley this way so I deduce their beer had very little alcohol. This also means that the residual sugars in flour actually makes alcohol in bread (obvious for most of you).  Also bread and (ale) beer yeast differ so little that one can make either product with either yeast.

I'll spare you guys the details of malting and the beer making process from a biochemical point of view.

Luc H.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Thanks, Luc.

Question for anyone who knows the answer: One thing of particular interest to me is kimchi (fermented type, which is the majority of it). Can you tell me why kimchi is easy to make, and in such variety, while beer is much more demanding of the right ingredients and conditions? I've made both. And let me know if my perception here is off.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Another question ... the effects antibiotics have on us are obvious. The effects of "probiotics" are not. I wonder how much probiotics can make a difference. Do they really affect our gut much, and the rest of our body, or not?

That's another question where the answer might be too big to fit here. It's also calling into question a HUGE industry where a lot of money changes hands. Any scientific info on that, even just a little bit of the science, is appreciated.
 
#25 ·
Beer is demanding because of the need for sterility until the yeast is pitched, and for the differences in water depending on location. Commercial breweries treat their water and add minerals to make it the same no matter which part of the country they are in. Home brewers are stuck with their tap water and some mild treatments that they can do to lower the level of hardness(not good for brewing in to large of amounts). Then the yeast strain, the hops variety, the difference in malts... brewing is a complex chemical reaction where kimchee is using the natural bacteria in the cabbage and veg to start the fermentation.
 
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