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went wrong with my Apple Pie crust?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

Little help pls,

 

So, I'm a learning pie crust maker.  Made two yesterday, and for the first time, combined my four layers into one batch for speed and ease.  Seemed it might be a bit too much water I put in, but not sure.  Added some flour to make it easier to roll out and handle.  Also used give away tins for the first time.

 

In the oven, the crust 'melted' over the edge of the aluminum foil dish on one of the pies, and the other 'sagged' on the edge.  About a third of the edge of the first pie fell off.  Tasted the crust after it was done, and tasted good, light, flakey, but not on the crust.  I wondered if the 'watery' dough could have caused this, or was it another facter.  I may have added too much butter (tins are smaller than glass plates), and wondered if that was a factor.  Also, when pinching the edges of the dough onto the tin, one of the pies I pinched till it touched the aluminum, and perhaps that caused the edge to be weaker and why one pie's edge fell verses the other.  Stil, both pies had obvious 'sag' on the edges.  Also thought the butter in the crust might have that effect.

 

Crust ingredients:

 

5 cups of flour

@ 12-15 tablespoons of ice water

1 1/2 cups of crisco

1/2 cup of butter

teaspoon of fine salt.

 

 

 

Not a pro, or pro wanna be except in my dreams.  I know I made a mistake, just trying to figure out where.

 

I've found two different ways of cooking pies.  One temperature sustained, or two tempratures, the first high, the second lower.  My mother uses the two temp method, and I've been trying to nail down what she does on my gas oven.  This time, I used what would be on most ovens @ 415 for 30 min, and 385 for about 30 min.

 

 

Thank you!!

post #2 of 16

I'm no baker, but looks like too much water and fat. Also, was the butter & crisco ice cold? Did you cut it into the flour until just a fine meal?

Did you rest it in the fridge before rolling?

post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefbuba View Post
 

I'm no baker, but looks like too much water and fat. Also, was the butter & crisco ice cold? Did you cut it into the flour until just a fine meal?

Did you rest it in the fridge before rolling?

 

The crisco wasn't cold, but I keep it in a cool spot in my kitchen away from heat.  The butter was softened to mix in the flour.  One thing I have learned through this process is that making sure your fat is thoroughly saturated throughout the flour is important (took me a long time to figure that mistake out).  I know I use a bit more fat than average, and it could also, be part of the problem.  However, I've made the crust with the same percentage ingredients before without sag....or at least I couldn't recognize in a glass pie dish.

 

'Yes' to all other questions.

post #4 of 16
For my butter crusts....
Freeze the stick then shred on a box grater.
Gently separate and stick back in freezer.

Measure flour and add salt and sugar if using ,park it in the freezer as well.

Getting the gist lol?

Whatever liquid you will use to bind must be ice cold as well.

I sub a tablespoon of vodka for the water as it is how my Gma Van taught me.

Anyways.... take out drys (that have been in a SS bowl in freezer) shake the butter over and using my hands like a rake (space between fingers) I toss everything until it looks shaggy.
Be quick about it as body heat is deadly at this point.

Add just enuf liquid to bring together in a loosish/but cohesive mass.

Divide into whatever size you will need for bottom crusts.....a bit larger amt for the top crust.
Shape into disks and wrap with cling film .
Return to refer so the flour absorbs all the liquids (rehydration)

When time to roll out work quickly (I use a pastry cloth) and get it in the pans... then you guessed it lol.
Stick in fridge again until time to blind bake.

Sorry no measures as this is just a technique.
Although can tell you added way too much water to yours.

If using a mix of butter plus another fat just freeze the other fat in small compact squares before shredding as nothing will shred as tidy as frozen butter so it helps to use smaller amts at a time.

Whew that was long lol.

mimi
post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 

So this past weekend, I made those two pies for the neighbors in thanks for helping us out of snow removal from our driveway, and today, I made another....actually mother made it, and I assisted.  She's being making these pies along time, and her technique is 'old cook' style.  No butter in the crust, just the crisco.

 

From mom and your reply, I'd gather I made the following errors.....

 

-too much water in dough

 

 

-too much water on the apples after I rinsed them off.

 

-too much butter with the apples for the size of the pie.  1/2 stick would have been plenty.

 

-crisco doens't need to be in the frig or freeze, but butter crusts may require it.

 

-I used to much dough for my pie around the edge, and overfilled with apples.

 

 

As I mentioned, mom's recipe calls for crisco alone, and that may not require the cold treatment (freezer).  My mother came by today but, forgot why she came.  It was a good chance for her to help me make this next Apple Pie for my dinner tonight with yet another neighbor fam.  Don't you want to be my neighbor?

 

We had fun, and I took some pictures for demonstration and your enjoyment.

 

When she made the crust, she didn't once use ice or the frig.  The water was cold from the tap.  She didn't overfill the pie, which I would have done, using 1/2 stick of butter, cinnamon (no nutmeg), 3/4 cup of sugar for the filling.

 

Crust and Pie filling:

2 cups of flour unsifted, save for her running her fingers through the flour to make sure it wasn't clumpy.  2/3 cup of cold crisco whtich I happened to have stashed in the frig (the one frig excpetion). Dash of salt (old cook style), and just enough cold tap water.  Dough didn't sit one milisec in the frig.  Immediately on the plate after rolling it out.  Her lower layer didn't even come all the way around the plate to the top edge of the dish.  After the top layer was on, we connected the lower and upper, and you see the results.

 

My oven cooks cold, so I raised the temp 10 degrees to what she wanted.  15 min at 375 (385), and 45-50 minutes at 350(360).  I show you the great Pie maker herself along with before and after shots below.  After dinner tonight, Ill let you know what it tasted like.  ;)

 

Also known as "worlds best Apple pie maker east of the Mississippi"...(quoted from family friends)

 

Before

 

After

 

 

So, I've noticed in my learning of making Apple pies that there are a couple vaious paths taken in making them.

 

 

Crisco vs Butter crusts

Freezing/refrig ingredients vs room temp with the exception of  cold tap water

Nutmeg vs not nutmeg

Same baking temperature vs Higher/lower baking temperature

 

Butter crusts have obvious pluses for flavor, but does this require the freeze treatment due to the ingredient change?  Does using crisco make such a difference in the technique used?

post #6 of 16
Nice looking pie. We seem to have same Mother based on pie making style. I confuse my mom with insistence on resting dough in fridge before rolling and again before baking. I start at 425 to set the dough and lower if browning too fast. I also bake a little darker. But if it tastes good it's all the same. congrats on your persistence and progress
post #7 of 16
PS. Nutmeg for sure and a bit of cinnamon too. Squeeze of lemon never hurts either

What is this snow of which you speak?
post #8 of 16
I learned most of my baking at my Gma Van's knee and her short crust recipe was pretty much the same as your mom's.
Pretty sure she rolls over in her grave every time I spend half a day just to make a simple dessert lol.
No one makes pie (or anything else for that matter) like your momma.
This is a globally held notion and is what is keeping that nuclear clock from striking midnite IMO.

i am the only one of my generation who bakes from scratch (sad but I never have to think very hard what to bring to a gathering :-)
Times like these send me trippin down memory lane.
Miss you mom.

mimi

What a great looking pie.....
Of course she was rewarded with a huge hug, right?

m.
post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post

Nice looking pie. We seem to have same Mother based on pie making style. I confuse my mom with insistence on resting dough in fridge before rolling and again before baking. I start at 425 to set the dough and lower if browning too fast. I also bake a little darker. But if it tastes good it's all the same. congrats on your persistence and progress

Mom wasn't around to take it out of the oven....the lightness is my fault, not hers.  She had to run back home....never could remember why she came.  :D...well besides improve help with my pie.  I think she would have left it in longer, even though I did follow her directions on time (not her oven).  Her's usually are a tad darker.  Tasted good though, but a bit more carmelization would have been nice.  Thanks Brian.  Good mom's eh??

 

I've also noticed a diff in color besides taste of the crust based off crisco vs butter.  Besides the buttery taste, the crust is more golden, whereas the crisco has a crisco flavor and whiter look.  Could top it with a brush of butter and possibly bring some butter flavor to it and more golden look.

post #10 of 16
Thread Starter 

You got it.  BIIIGGG HUGG!!!!  :)

 

Like I said back in 2012 when I joined this amazing eatery forum, she is the reason for my inspiration to cook and food create.  Some day I'll show you her Lemon Meringue Ice Box Pie.  Killer.  Like you Mimi, I can easily spend 1/2 a day on something from scratch.  Made a Chicken Pot Pie from scratch a week ago, and it was several hours.  Same crust as above basically.

 

What's your opinion on mixing crisco and butter, like 1/2 1/2, instead of just butter or just crisco?

 

 

If I can figure out how to turn this into a 'signature' on my posts, Mimi, I think you've just give me one.....

 

 

 

Quote:
"No one makes pie (or anything else for that matter) like your momma.
This is a globally held notion and is what is keeping that nuclear clock from striking midnite IMO."----flipflopgirl
post #11 of 16
I often mix the fats in my pastry dough.
Before Crisco changed their formula I used it quite often.
Switched to lard (cannot remember what the brand is but it comes in a green and white box)
Still use the Crisco for my fried chicken....
Which I have not made in ages as we seldom fry anything.
Thanks for reminding me.....gotta go buy a chicken now smile.gif

mimi
post #12 of 16
To get that shiny golden pastry crust try using an egg wash (egg white whisked with a few drops of milk or cream to help break up the white).
I do this about halfway into the baking as sometimes it causes the edges to darken before the middle.

mimi
post #13 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post

PS. Nutmeg for sure and a bit of cinnamon too. Squeeze of lemon never hurts either

What is this snow of which you speak?

Had some snow recently, and my driveway was deeply under a couple feet of snow, and my friendly neighbor pulls his tractor over and plows it away, after watching me try to do it all with a shovel. Saved my back, I can tell you.  Just a way of 'thank you', I made him an apple pie.  Not bad reward, I'd say.  :)  

 

For the nutmeg, I really don't know why my mother is opposed to it, but she's a definite no nutmeg gal.  My daughter swears by it, and I'm introducing it into my future experiments (like I did with the neighbor's pie....actually made two for two separate neighbors, and than the one shown above for a dinner).  Practice makes perfect, eh Brian?

post #14 of 16
Thread Starter 

Mimi, do you think the egg wash adds flavor?  Like carmelizing adds flavor?

post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post

I often mix the fats in my pastry dough.
Before Crisco changed their formula I used it quite often.
Switched to lard (cannot remember what the brand is but it comes in a green and white box)
Still use the Crisco for my fried chicken....
Which I have not made in ages as we seldom fry anything.
Thanks for reminding me.....gotta go buy a chicken now smile.gif

mimi

lol.  

What don't you like about the 'new' Crisco?  

I love making fried chicken, but boy is THAT time consuming to do it right.  Still.....delicious.  :)  

post #16 of 16
They screwd with the trans fats.
Made it too soft for my needs.
It's not like I was gonna eat it out of the can .
I see "They" are reorgainizing the food pyramid again.
Wish the government would stay out of my mouth.

mimi
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