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japanese (thin/light) vs western (thick/heavy) - Page 2

post #31 of 52
I find it hard to conceive a soft blade chipping. I guess it are burr remainings falling off, leaving a damaged apex.
post #32 of 52
Thread Starter 
I agree Benuser, the steel should be too soft to chip but it's fairly noticeable to the eye, not to mention very rough feeling. There are now closer to a dozen of these spots. What ever they may be, ive not really seen them on a knife unless its been abused, left to corrode, used like an axe, etc. I'm thinking I might replace it with a cheaper Victorinox chefs knife with the fibrerox handle. Not forged but I can purchase one for as little as $49. Most people have good things to say about victorinox.
post #33 of 52

Factory edges can be pretty weak.  I wouldn't think much of it unless you've already sharpened.

 

Victorinox used to be a good deal, but considering you can go ahead and get a Tojiro DP for $7 more, maybe not.  The price point they used to occupy is now taken up by wusthof pro line at $24.

post #34 of 52
Thread Starter 
I've sharpened the knife quite heavily twice already, not to mention alot more honing and I've had it a matter of weeks. I've re-profiled the edge on it, just seems like rubbish steel. Maybe others have had better luck with the same brand. In saying that Im far from an expert at sharpening, I could be doing things wrong. But my Shuns perform beautifully with the same sharpening process, no burs that I can see.

The Tojiro really do keep popping up everywhere I look. They seem like a real bargain japanese style blade considering everyone says they easily match a Shun for quality, some even prefer the Tojiro. They do have a large selection of them at my local knife shop too. I will see if I can use a few different styles in the Tojiro when I go down.

I'm really doing a lot more slicing cuts rather then push cuts now I must admit too due to being paranoid about chipping the knives. I'm actually starting to prefer slicing/pull cuts alot more, especially with the smaller knives. But my knife skills are pretty average in saying that.
Do some people use almost exclusively push/rocking cuts versus slicing/pull cuts or vice versa?
I find the slices give cleaner, more symmetrical cuts vs ME push cutting.
post #35 of 52

I like push for harder vegetables, pull for softer stuff.  See Salty's video:

 

post #36 of 52

Push, pull, rock... I know I do them all but I never think too hard about which technique to use. I'm generally more focus on cooking and just do what works best. I envy people with enough time on their hands to analyze the minutia of detail regarding "when/how/why/what-if" cutting food for cooking.  :lol:

post #37 of 52

I don't really think about it.  My technique varies by knife.  I do a lot of cleaver push cutting now.

post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 

I like push for harder vegetables, pull for softer stuff.  See Salty's video:

 

 

I love Salty's three martini knife demos - :beer:

post #39 of 52
I never liked shun my self do to it really isn't a true jap style knife. I switch from my jaw knifes which is kikuichi I use it for veggies and slicing meat since I have a 300cm knife and my wustoff for breaking bones, frozen, or very hard veggies. My problem with eastern knifes are how brittle they are while I dislike western knifes for how dull they are
post #40 of 52
Thread Starter 
Great video MillionsKnives, really shows how the different techniques work regarding different hardness of the produce.

And yes Brian, just a little too much time on my hands. Haha. And I've developed quite an interest in knives recently, not too mention cooking new things. Can't beat a good home cooked meal. I tend to do a lot of research when I'm not working, keeps the mind busy and I find it a very interesting subject. I mean, why the hell are there soon many different types of knives? Takes a lot of knowledge and experience to know what is useful for you or what is easier, more efficient to use.

I have to say I am curious about trying a cleaver. I understand the Chinese cleaver is more closely related to a nakiri or santoku rather then a meat cleaver, you don't swing it?
post #41 of 52
You really need to try a Chinese Cleaver!
post #42 of 52
Thread Starter 
Okay, visiting the shop today changed my mind again. I asked to try some dearer knives. I tried some dearer Japanese blades including the Shun Premier against the Wosthof Classic Ikon...the Wostohf is out of this world. Sharper again, even with a 20 degree edge! It peeled my finger like a fruit. Haha. I now prefer the wosthof classic ikon. It is sharper then a shun, won't chip and can cut heavier items also. As well as allowing some blade flex with cutting the length of a carrot, etc. Which is nice I feel, less compromises, more pros in my opinion. I was very happy with it in the test. Time will tell if I still feel the same way.

Where would you recommend purchasing a cheap Chinese cleaver Brian? eBay perhaps?
post #43 of 52
Please be aware the Wüsthof comes nowadays with a 13 degree angle per side, an edge that impresses but won't hold at 58HRc. The Shun comes with a 17 degree angle with a much better steel.
post #44 of 52

The factory edge from Shun is not great, whereas the Ikon has a much thinner edge and decent OTB sharpening.  It is sharpening that makes the difference here, as it will with any knife you bring home and eventually will get dull and have to be sharpened.

 

SG-2 is a far superior steel to the bottom-barrel steel of the Ikon.  That being said there are much better and less expensive options in SG-2, and other steels, than the Shun.

 

 

Rick

post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Sam View Post

Okay, visiting the shop today changed my mind again. I asked to try some dearer knives. I tried some dearer Japanese blades including the Shun Premier against the Wosthof Classic Ikon...the Wostohf is out of this world. Sharper again, even with a 20 degree edge! It peeled my finger like a fruit. Haha. I now prefer the wosthof classic ikon. It is sharper then a shun, won't chip and can cut heavier items also. As well as allowing some blade flex with cutting the length of a carrot, etc. Which is nice I feel, less compromises, more pros in my opinion. I was very happy with it in the test. Time will tell if I still feel the same way.

Where would you recommend purchasing a cheap Chinese cleaver Brian? eBay perhaps?


Hey Vinnie,

 

There was a thread on cleavers recently that talked about options, from hundred dollar (and more, I think) to inexpensive. You should check it out since "Millions" contributed a lot of his knowledge... and he is really smart on cleavers. The Chinese cleaver I've used for 40 years is a Dexter. Amazon or eBay has them at very reasonable prices. I use mostly for veg but have taken apart chickens with it too. Not bashing bones into submission, but separating at joints.  :)

 

Interesting observations you make of Ikon vs Shun .Are you sure that the one's you tested had a 30 deg edge? I was surprised about your experience until reading about Ikon's 13 degree angle.  Then it made sense. That seems to be a recent marketing ploy to make it sharper initially but might not be good for the long run. I don't think I could live with blade flex except for in a boning or fillet knife though. I've never had a concern about Shun out-of-the-box sharpness.  Mine have all been frighteningly sharp and they have held their edge rather good in home use. But when they get dull...

post #46 of 52

"Frighteningly" sharp is a very relative experience.  I've never heard any of the frequent flyers over at KKF every refer to the OTB sharpness of Shuns as Frightening Sharp. My Shun certainly wasn't.

 

Shun advertises 16deg/side.  What actually happens at the factory is a v-grind is put on the edge at "approximately" somewhere around16deg, then that is hit with a buffing wheel which removes considerable material from the edge going in the obtuse direction.  By all appearances it is not a very well controlled process and edges can get burned in places as mine was.  So you really don't know what you are going to get from one box to the next.

 

Wusty at least uses a laser measuring tool to tell the operator if he is reasonably in spec, and there is no buffing afterwards.  Last I saw they "advertised" 15deg/side actually.

 

 

Rick

post #47 of 52

I base my statement on experience with 5 Shun Classic or Premier knives.  First hand experience.  I certainly respect all other experience and opinions, but...

post #48 of 52
Thread Starter 
From what I've read I thought the Wosthof was sharpened at 14 degrees. But the fella at the shop said 20 degrees which surprised me. I'd believe 14 over 20 but I don't imagine it holding an edge for as long as a harder blade if it's that acute. But all in all I think I preferred the wusthof, but in saying that I still have my Japanese blades so I can and will swap between them as I choose.

Hi Brian. The blade flex was very slight on the tip, just enough that you can follow the curve of a carrot, etc, when cutting one in half lengthways. The Japanese knives are very stiff in general and only cut straight line without being able to make slight turns I guess. Doesn't feel like I will snap the tip off and it has a little more weight in the wusthof which I like for ease of cutting. But it's not so heavy that you get tired picking it up over and over. It's a nice medium for me. That's not to say I don't like the Japanese ones, I've not actually tested any with SG2 steel. You'd have to buy those first. But I didn't like the Shun premier as much as the wusthof classic ikon. But I'm starting to learn that there are better Japanese blades out there so to be fair on making a Japanese vs western knife comparison, wusthof being one of the best western brands I feel, it would only be fair that I tested it against a top of the line Japanese knife, preferably with the SG2 powdered steel or something of that quality. From what the gentleman in the shop told me, there is really only one place in Japan that make the SG2 steel and for a while it was quite hard to get. Hence the high price these knives can fetch.

Considering I picked up the classic ikon 8" chefs knife for $151 Australian dollars, Im pretty happy. My Shun sora cost me $144 but I bought that from a shop. Same shop had the wusthof listed at $288 from memory.

Hi Rick. I did ask the shop owner if the Shun could be as sharp with a proper sharpen as I suspected that the wusthof may have just been through a more thorough sharpening process from factory. But there are other qualities about the blade that I believe made it perform better when cutting. The blade seems thinner for longer heading up towards the spine on the wusthof and it tapers thinner near the tip. I admit the shop keeper was a die hard wusthof man and was probably trying to convert me. Haha. But I will use both styles at home over the next few months and see how they go.

Did you have a link to that cleaver discussion Brian? If not, no stress. I'll just do a search for it.
post #49 of 52

This was my thread:

 

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/85968/cleaver-believer

 

I would also recommend reading this:

 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5319-Discourse-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post

 

And watch any original iron chef battles with Chen Kenichi on youtube

post #50 of 52

and don't forget to check out the numerous YouTube videos in which Martin Yan breaks down a chicken with a cleaver.  Its impressive in video and even more impressive to see in person.

post #51 of 52

One big technique change is when julienne-ing anything with a cleaver.  Instead of planking and stacking, I slice stuff then lay it out just overlapping all the way across the board. Never more than 2 layers at any point.  Then I work my way across the board as uniformly as possible. 

 

So instead of stack, cut, clear, stack, cut, clear, etc.   I just cut cut cut cut across the whole board.

 

This isn't just for normal sized matchsticks, I'd use the same technique for paper thin slices and hair sized threads too

post #52 of 52

Vinnie in regards to OTB sharpness the only thing really  to understand is that it is virtually meaningless.  On any given day my humble ordinary Ikon is sharper than any other Ikon or Shun OTB.  And from my perspective I don't consider that even to be frighteningly/scary sharp.

 

Scary sharp is when the weight of a 5oz knife [freshly sharpened] is more than sufficient for it to fall thru a tomato skin, and anything close to that.  Any edge that can push cut through a tomato skin without much force could be considered scary sharp.  And to make really thin clean cuts that is the kind of knife you want.  Even just for the thrill of using it (without cutting the hell out of yourself).

 

But even using a fine diamond loaded strop I don't think you could get an Ikon close to that, and even if it did it wouldn't stay that way for long.  A decent knife in SG-2 on the other hand will be scary sharp enough just off a good set of stones, a carbon CCK cleaver could also I believe, even if for safety's sake you don't want to make a knife that sharp right now.  Something to seriously consider when you're just stepping up to sharp knives.

 

 

You can be perfectly happy with an Ikon, but for the money there are much better options.  And, as always, your sharpening makes the lion's share of the actual working difference.

 

 

Rick


Edited by Rick Alan - 7/11/15 at 1:45am
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