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Interested in purchasing a "Kanehide TK?" thoughts on it?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

Hello all,

I was talking to a few people and they recommended the "Kanehide TK" from Chef Knives To Go" http://www.chefknivestogo.com/katkgy21.html and they really recommend it as a cheap starter knife.  A lot of people rave about it being one of the best knives for the price, and there are a lot of comparisons with it and something called the "Kohetsu TKC." 


Was just curious what people thought... Thanks :).

post #2 of 25

Like JCK's CarboNext, it's apparently a clone of the semi-stainless Kikuichi TKC (not the "Kohetsu TKC", which afaik doesn't exist). Semi-stainless alloys, like this and the steel in the Konosuke HD that you looked into earlier, use chromium to impart some corrosion resistance, but they don't use the full 13% that grants the classification "stainless". As a result, they often feel like carbon on the stones and take carbon-like edges in carbon-like time. In return, you typically have to spend a lot for knives that use semi-stainless alloys, and you give up some degree of corrosion resistance compared to stainless (although I've heard the Konosuke HD isn't much less corrosion resistant than its officially stainless HH brother or the alloys used in a lot of Mac knives).

 

This knife was not on my radar until you mentioned it in that other thread. It's very new, and I haven't read of anyone on CT buying one yet. In some very brief googling, I've come across at least one reference on the CKTG forums to the Kanehide TK having excellent F&F, which is unusual for Japanese knives at this price point outside of JKI. Assuming that's the case, it might be an excellent value. That said, it's a lot cheaper than the Kikuichi TKC. Granted, the Kikuichi TKC was probably overpriced for what you were getting, and some of its price was probably just the result of reputation allowing them to charge more. However, it's possible that the Kanehide TK makes some harmful concessions if it's sold at such a low cost comparatively. F&F is one of the usual concessions, but that's apparently not supposed to be the case here. The CarboNext was known for having a terrible initial sharpening job and I believe a very inconsistent grind near the edge. Unless you're already capable of and willing to put a lot of time into correcting the edge, the CarboNext would not be a good first knife as it would perform terribly OOTB. Hopefully, the Kanehide will have a decent grind and a decent enough initial sharpening job that it won't complicate future sharpening. Might it make other concessions? CKTG has a history of marketing their knives based on the alloys they use, and some members of CT have claimed that knives in the Lamson-produced Richmond lines sometimes don't receive a good heat treatment, rendering the steel much less great and sometimes nearly unusable. I don't have experience with this either way. I suspect Japanese manufacturers, even unknown ones like Kanehide, wouldn't deliberately cut corners with their heat treatment, but I don't know how experienced they are with semi-stainless alloys. It's possible that the reason CKTG is able to keep the cost down so much is precisely because Kanehide doesn't have that experience.

 

On paper, the knife is an amazing buy. It's *possible* but entirely speculation on my part, that there's some sort of catch or tradeoff. Alloy, profile, weight, and spine thickness, aren't the entire story of what makes a knife worth the cost. Things like quality of grind and heat treatment can be hard to predict before receiving a knife, unless the manufacturer has an established reputation. But sometimes things that seem too good to be true are indeed true, and this might very well be one of those cases where you'll find the Kanehide TK 240 gyuto going for $200 instead of $125 in a year. If I were you, which I'm not, I'd probably get one of them, see how it performs both OOTB and after taking it to the stones a few times, and let us know. Make sure your dad is okay with periodically wiping the knife with a damp towel, though, since it's not truly stainless.

post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
 

Like JCK's CarboNext, it's apparently a clone of the semi-stainless Kikuichi TKC (not the "Kohetsu TKC", which afaik doesn't exist). Semi-stainless alloys, like this and the steel in the Konosuke HD that you looked into earlier, use chromium to impart some corrosion resistance, but they don't use the full 13% that grants the classification "stainless". As a result, they often feel like carbon on the stones and take carbon-like edges in carbon-like time. In return, you typically have to spend a lot for knives that use semi-stainless alloys, and you give up some degree of corrosion resistance compared to stainless (although I've heard the Konosuke HD isn't much less corrosion resistant than its officially stainless HH brother or the alloys used in a lot of Mac knives).

 

This knife was not on my radar until you mentioned it in that other thread. It's very new, and I haven't read of anyone on CT buying one yet. In some very brief googling, I've come across at least one reference on the CKTG forums to the Kanehide TK having excellent F&F, which is unusual for Japanese knives at this price point outside of JKI. Assuming that's the case, it might be an excellent value. That said, it's a lot cheaper than the Kikuichi TKC. Granted, the Kikuichi TKC was probably overpriced for what you were getting, and some of its price was probably just the result of reputation allowing them to charge more. However, it's possible that the Kanehide TK makes some harmful concessions if it's sold at such a low cost comparatively. F&F is one of the usual concessions, but that's apparently not supposed to be the case here. The CarboNext was known for having a terrible initial sharpening job and I believe a very inconsistent grind near the edge. Unless you're already capable of and willing to put a lot of time into correcting the edge, the CarboNext would not be a good first knife as it would perform terribly OOTB. Hopefully, the Kanehide will have a decent grind and a decent enough initial sharpening job that it won't complicate future sharpening. Might it make other concessions? CKTG has a history of marketing their knives based on the alloys they use, and some members of CT have claimed that knives in the Lamson-produced Richmond lines sometimes don't receive a good heat treatment, rendering the steel much less great and sometimes nearly unusable. I don't have experience with this either way. I suspect Japanese manufacturers, even unknown ones like Kanehide, wouldn't deliberately cut corners with their heat treatment, but I don't know how experienced they are with semi-stainless alloys. It's possible that the reason CKTG is able to keep the cost down so much is precisely because Kanehide doesn't have that experience.

 

On paper, the knife is an amazing buy. It's *possible* but entirely speculation on my part, that there's some sort of catch or tradeoff. Alloy, profile, weight, and spine thickness, aren't the entire story of what makes a knife worth the cost. Things like quality of grind and heat treatment can be hard to predict before receiving a knife, unless the manufacturer has an established reputation. But sometimes things that seem too good to be true are indeed true, and this might very well be one of those cases where you'll find the Kanehide TK 240 gyuto going for $200 instead of $125 in a year. If I were you, which I'm not, I'd probably get one of them, see how it performs both OOTB and after taking it to the stones a few times, and let us know. Make sure your dad is okay with periodically wiping the knife with a damp towel, though, since it's not truly stainless.



Thanks Gladius, much appreciated....

It's hard to know because a lot of people are very happy with the knife, and everyone is saying it's "The knife" of 2015.  They do compare it to the CarboNext, as we discussed in the other thread.

The only complaint I've heard about this knife is possibly OOTB edge (but seriously I feel I see everyone complain about most knives with this issue), and that there is a weird "polish second' that is really badly polished or something... Some sort of "Quality Control...." issue....

People said that they were able to sharpen it out, and then it was much better.

I'm thinking about grabbing one, but I'm also curious about a possibly Suji now...


My post on CKTG was

Quote:
 
Okay, so now I decided I'm going to look for a Suji, also.

Anyone have comments on these knives?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fujiwara.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpslkn27.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kanehide1.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riar27su.html

The first one seems really nice for the price... thoughts? The Tojiro in #2 seems okay, but people complain about the handle. The Kanehide doesn't have reviews, and if I get the Gyuto from Kanehide then I would like another company to try out. As for the Richmond, it also has a lot of good reviews.. Any comments on Fujiwara or Tojiro Gyutos in addition to the Sujis above?

Thanks all :)


The fuji was recommended on CKTG's forum, so thoughts on that? :)

Thanks again Gladius :).

post #4 of 25
About the FKH Fujiwara 270mm sujihiki, it's a great knive at a little price. The carbon steel is extremely reactive and needs a patina to stabilize. Otherwise, a great, remarkably stiff knife, but strongly right-biased. We will explain how to deal with that.
I don't know the Kanehide, but from the choil picture I see it's very asymmetric. So the edge should be as well, or you will encounter crazy steering and/or wedging over time. But that isn't the vendor's first preoccupation, obviously. I'm just wondering he sells it with a 50/50 edge, as if it was a Wüsthof.
post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benuser View Post

About the FKH Fujiwara 270mm sujihiki, it's a great knive at a little price. The carbon steel is extremely reactive and needs a patina to stabilize. Otherwise, a great, remarkably stiff knife, but strongly right-biased. We will explain how to deal with that.
I don't know the Kanehide, but from the choil picture I see it's very asymmetric. So the edge should be as well, or you will encounter crazy steering and/or wedging over time. But that isn't the vendor's first preoccupation, obviously. I'm just wondering he sells it with a 50/50 edge, as if it was a Wüsthof.


I've bought from CKTG 3 times but nothing in over a year.  Mostly they prey on the new and inexperienced.  You get what you pay for.  Nothing wrong with project knives, but be ready to do some work.

post #6 of 25

Oh and if their knives have any problems like they're bent, delaminating, grind is uneven, handles on crooked, etc. be prepared to fix it yourself or pay return shipping AND a restocking fee.  Where quality vendors wouldn't send this stuff out in the first place, CKTG is all to happy to take your money and hope you don't know any better or it'll cost you enough that you won't return.  Paying $15 shipping + $10 restocking on a $100 is more than most are willing to spend.  The bet is that someone shopping in the $100-150 price point doesn't know any better and unfortunately it's a good bet.

 

I'm not the only one who has had this experience http://www.cheftalk.com/t/80025/masamoto-vg-kohetsu-and-takamura#post_476186

post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 


I've bought from CKTG 3 times but nothing in over a year.  Mostly they prey on the new and inexperienced.  You get what you pay for.  Nothing wrong with project knives, but be ready to do some work.


Thanks, I was afraid of being preyed on :(.  Definitely don't want a project knife for a noobie lol.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 

Oh and if their knives have any problems like they're bent, delaminating, grind is uneven, handles on crooked, etc. be prepared to fix it yourself or pay return shipping AND a restocking fee.  Where quality vendors wouldn't send this stuff out in the first place, CKTG is all to happy to take your money and hope you don't know any better or it'll cost you enough that you won't return.  Paying $15 shipping + $10 restocking on a $100 is more than most are willing to spend.  The bet is that someone shopping in the $100-150 price point doesn't know any better and unfortunately it's a good bet.

 

I'm not the only one who has had this experience http://www.cheftalk.com/t/80025/masamoto-vg-kohetsu-and-takamura#post_476186

 

Yeah... Nope.  I don't want any issues, which seem to be the case a lot of times.  This is one of the reasons I wanted to buy a nice quality knife like a Konosuke :(.

It seems a lot of people liked their knives though, but they are only the ones reviewing, and not everyone.. :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benuser View Post

About the FKH Fujiwara 270mm sujihiki, it's a great knive at a little price. The carbon steel is extremely reactive and needs a patina to stabilize. Otherwise, a great, remarkably stiff knife, but strongly right-biased. We will explain how to deal with that.
I don't know the Kanehide, but from the choil picture I see it's very asymmetric. So the edge should be as well, or you will encounter crazy steering and/or wedging over time. But that isn't the vendor's first preoccupation, obviously. I'm just wondering he sells it with a 50/50 edge, as if it was a Wüsthof.

Interesting, because yeah they say 50/50 edge which I would assume they are Symmetrical, and I believe I was told that they would be good for both lefty and righties, but I guess that info is wrong too.

I wouldn't want steering or issues though :(.

I hear the really thin knives, like the Gesshin Ginga, or other "lasers" wouldn't cause those issues in lefty/righties because of how thin it is.
Someone mentioned they are a lefty, their son is a lefty, and their daughter is a righty, and they all use the Ginga :)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks all for the help, I always appreciate it greatly!

Especially someone like MillionKnives who has been with me since the beginning, in my ever long quest to find a suitable knife hahaha :).

post #8 of 25

I hadn't seen that knife yet but I'll probably pick one up in the 240mm size.  It does appear to be a cross between a Kikuichi TKC and a Carbonext.  Both of those are stellar knives.

 

As far as CKtG I have found them to be the best vendor out there.  I've bought almost too many knives to count from Mark and have never had a serious issue.  One time I did get a knife with a significant undergrind at the heel.  CKtG offered to make it right at no charge but I'm well equipped to deal with stuff like that so I fixed it myself.  DISCLOSURE:  I have in the past done some sharpening work for CKtG, so maybe I'm not unbiased.  But I've always found them great to deal with.  They by no means cater to the nOObs only!  While they have a lot of value/entry-level knives they also stock of the best knives you can get for under $1000.  JMOHO.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 

Oh and if their knives have any problems like they're bent, delaminating, grind is uneven, handles on crooked, etc. be prepared to fix it yourself or pay return shipping AND a restocking fee.  Where quality vendors wouldn't send this stuff out in the first place, CKTG is all to happy to take your money and hope you don't know any better or it'll cost you enough that you won't return.  Paying $15 shipping + $10 restocking on a $100 is more than most are willing to spend.  The bet is that someone shopping in the $100-150 price point doesn't know any better and unfortunately it's a good bet.

 

I'm not the only one who has had this experience http://www.cheftalk.com/t/80025/masamoto-vg-kohetsu-and-takamura#post_476186

 

Ah, just read that thread.  Sound like some serious bullshit to me.  The jackass bought a knife and simply didn't like it but expected a full refund.  I'd have told him to go pound sand, too.  It's one thing to accept a return on a knife that's defective but the poster there just didn't like it.  I know of few companies that would accept a return for full credit in that case.  Try to return a car to a car lot after driving it for a few weeks. 

 

Plus, apropos of nothing, knives with a RC of 65/66 will work just fine, depending on the steel and HT.  That confounds people and it's not a simple issue.  Some early VG10 knives chipped very very easily at RC60!  But you can take AoKo up to around that range with no problem if the HT is right.  And just because a knife is hard doesn't mean it's going to be hard to sharpen.  A great example is White #1 at 65 Rockwell.  Very hard but there's nothing else you can buy (that I know of) that's as easy to get screamin' sharp.  Any stone will do it.  That's because hardness, toughness and abrasion resistance are only loosely related.  Compare White #1 to Aogami; at the same RC the White will be much easier to sharpen due to the small carbides/fine grain structure and because Aogami has tungsten added to increase toughness and abrasion resistance.

 

The bottom line is you have to do your own homework.  You can't just suck it and see and expect someone else to pay for it if you don't like it.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #10 of 25
Yeah unfortunately I had real defects and the response was the same. Bent knives, grind problems, crooked handles. A good vendor would take them back. A better vendor wouldn't have sent them out. Between paying return shipping and a restock fee would have been 25% the cost of the knife! I just decided to fix them myself. Most people shopping these cheaper knives are not at my skill level to do their own repairs. My only gripe with them is on their entry level knives and house brands. For someone buying their first j knife, I'd recommend a vendor with stricter QC. There are plenty of choices in this price range, so I'll stick with vendors that haven't disappointed me.
post #11 of 25

In all fairness Mark has made a noticeable number of enemies.

 

 

Rick

post #12 of 25

A lot of them are competitors he's buried.  Just an FYI, and I know some of them.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 

Thanks all..  It's really hard to know who to go with because there are so many choices, and so many people hyping companies...  I think I might start with a Gesshin Uraku stainless 240mm Gyuto, since that seems to serve all of my needs and wants in a knife for an Entry Level JKnife.

The Kanehide seemed interesting, but I've heard some mixed feelings on it, and want something that I know I will love, plus I want a JHandle, and not a Western one....

Not sure if I'm going to keep looking, I'm pretty much in the zone for a few knives, and have exhausted all forums that I've found too....

Thanks all for the convo, keep it up :).
 

post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
 

A lot of them are competitors he's buried.  Just an FYI, and I know some of them.

 

Ahahaha, Mark is the consummate business man of the knife world.

 

I don't want to make this a CKTG bashing session, there's enough of that on KKF, and I also understand where you are coming from, I'll just say that in every way I personally would feel more comfortable buying a knife from Jon and a number of others.

 

 

 

Rick

post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Alan View Post
 

 

Ahahaha, Mark is the consummate business man of the knife world.

 

I don't want to make this a CKTG bashing session, there's enough of that on KKF, and I also understand where you are coming from, I'll just say that in every way I personally would feel more comfortable buying a knife from Jon and a number of others.

 

 

 

Rick



FWIW CKTG's forum members were a lot nicer than what I experienced over at KKF. Regardless if they were just trying to sell me on a knife or not on CKTG, they were nice to all of my questions, and going all over the place, as well as the thread being over 8 pages long.  Got to 4-5 pages on KKF, and was getting insulted by not only members, but by a moderator, and this was on multiple threads too.

I'm just glad I got so much overwhelming support for JKI from this forum, and other places, because the way I felt on that forum basically made me NOT want to buy ANYTHING they recommended.  They not only represent the site, but they represent their vendors.. ESPECIALLY the mods.

post #16 of 25
I find a lot of the KKF regulars insufferable, for a number of reasons, but strangely they have been rather forgiving of my faux pauxs, and I've had a few over there. Their value is they do have some folks who are serious knife collectors/knife-users who've tried just about everything and give pretty fair and detailed comparisons.


Rick
Edited by Rick Alan - 7/20/15 at 9:19am
post #17 of 25

And the buy sell trade forum and the knowledge of knife makers.  There are knife makers on there that are not official vendors.  They follow the rules and lay low, but there's so much blacksmithing and metallurgy knowledge

post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 

I'm sure there are some extremely knowledgeable people there, but I was treated extremely poorly, imo, and that's not cool, at all.  I might ask a lot of questions, but that doesn't give ANYONE the RIGHT to be rude to me.  If you don't like my posts, ignore the thread.  I wasn't mean, I thank everyone in all of my posts, so I don't know what warranted such rudeness.

 

post #19 of 25

KKF has more douches than a Walgreens.  I know Jon B is friendly with some those guys and I don't blame him, it's business.  Personally I have no time for their pettiness and dickbaggerie. It's basically an online cult. CKtG forum is pretty friendly but I haven't been there for a couple years, just haven't had a lot of time and my interest in knives isn't all consuming right now.  Since I cook for a living I'm always cutting and sharpening but at the moment my spare cash is all going to firearms.  Sadly all of my hobbies are expensive.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
 

KKF has more douches than a Walgreens.  I know Jon B is friendly with some those guys and I don't blame him, it's business.  Personally I have no time for their pettiness and dickbaggerie. It's basically an online cult. CKtG forum is pretty friendly but I haven't been there for a couple years, just haven't had a lot of time and my interest in knives isn't all consuming right now.  Since I cook for a living I'm always cutting and sharpening but at the moment my spare cash is all going to firearms.  Sadly all of my hobbies are expensive.

honestly, i call them out on that kind of thing too.  I dont think its good for anyone.

post #21 of 25

To be fair it's not just that forum- the anonymity of forums can allow a lot of bad behavior to skate by.  I really got tired of the bickering and factionalism of that little segment of the community and I've pretty much left the scene.  I will say though, Jon, that I will often steer folks over to your site. I appreciate that you've always taken the high road, and unlike some of the other folks out there I know that you know what you're talking about.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
 

To be fair it's not just that forum- the anonymity of forums can allow a lot of bad behavior to skate by.  I really got tired of the bickering and factionalism of that little segment of the community and I've pretty much left the scene.  I will say though, Jon, that I will often steer folks over to your site. I appreciate that you've always taken the high road, and unlike some of the other folks out there I know that you know what you're talking about.

 

1+

 

 

Rick

post #23 of 25

yeah... anonymity causes all kinds of problems for sure.  That being said, especially lately, KKF has been a lot more negative than i remember it being.  I'm currently talking to the mods about this, because it got to a point that bothered me and made me feel uncomfortable.  I think a lot of those guys didnt realize how bad it was because its been a slow and gradual change towards the more negative attitude.  But, being able to take a step back and look at whats going on seems to have been helpful for most.

post #24 of 25

Agree - too much micro managing going on there.  I know the site was bought, but the thorn is still at the helm IMO.  Ego and internet do not mix.

post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
 

To be fair it's not just that forum- the anonymity of forums can allow a lot of bad behavior to skate by.  I really got tired of the bickering and factionalism of that little segment of the community and I've pretty much left the scene.  I will say though, Jon, that I will often steer folks over to your site. I appreciate that you've always taken the high road, and unlike some of the other folks out there I know that you know what you're talking about.



"To be fair" I joined about 5 forums, and besides KKF only 1 person on another forum was "Rude" to me, and it was just basically saying I should buy a knife and blah blah blah I'm going nuts, but he was nice after we spoke about it, and offered advice.....  Unlike on KKF when you tell someone to stop being rude they will tell you 

Quote:
  If people can't handle mild "Personalities' they should strongly consider self empowerment training to grow a thicker skin and not be so easily offended. Nobody likes cry babies.


or some other type of bull response as to not take responsibility for themselves being such a rude person.

Also note this response was posted by someone in response to Jon's post regarding the negativity on KKF, so it seems that people over there just don't give a crap about others, unless of course, you're one of the "cook kids on the block....'


Also, to agree with your post, I completely understand about the "keyboard warriors" and how people act when behind a computer screen, and that usually has a ton to do with personal insecurities in real life, so they take it out on people who they don't know, on the internet, who don't know them.

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