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biscuit and bread

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

Why does my biscuits and bread turn out hard, that is impossible to bite on them.

I use milk, /oil flour,and peanut butter , vanilla, and other flavours  for the biscuits.

For the bread yeast , water, flour, and oil . I put in the middle of the oven  180.c .

 

thanks .

 

Jent

post #2 of 19
For your bread, oil is a softener so you may not be adding enough. This is assuming that you are using enough water in your dough to get the soft and silky texture.
For your biscuits, I assume you mean what Americans call cookies? The base for those uses roughly twice the amount of sugar as fat so if you're using peanut butter and butter, the peanut butter must be counted as past of the fat.
post #3 of 19

Are you following a recipe or just shooting from the hip?

 

mimi

post #4 of 19

I noticed that you did not label sugar in both the biscuit and bread ingredients. So if you are NOT using sugar then there is your problem right there!! It is quintessential to baking :eek:

post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fablesable View Post

I noticed that you did not label sugar in both the biscuit and bread ingredients. So if you are NOT using sugar then there is your problem right there!! It is quintessential to baking eek.gif

I hadn't even noticed that it was omitted from the bread ingredients as well, good eye!
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 

Thanks for your reply

 

NO I dont use sugar, but not always , honey 1 teaspoon, and Agave syrup . and a teaspoon of butter . I will try to use more as you suggest of butter. 

 

Jent

post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 

No , is my own , although I follow recipe , I omit sugar and butter sometimes.

 

 

Jen

 
  

:confused:

post #8 of 19

Is there a particular reason as to why you are omitting butter and sugar?? 

 

In the fermentation process of raising yeast for bread, sugar is a mandatory thing ......not an option. 

 

As for biscuits, you have to use some sort of sugar product in the appropriate amounts to achieve a proper outcome.......if you do not then you will have to get used to hard to bite into cookies and bread.

 

There are lots of options to choose from so don't hesitate to ask if you are trying to avoid "sugar" and "butter" because of health reasons. :) 

 

PS: Adding more butter without the addition of a sugar is pointless as you NEED the sugar to achieve the right texture and fermentation for biscuits and bread. 

post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 

I dont use sugar to avoid using sugar as an option, to avoid sugar  and butter in food, 

 

 

------what are the options to to choose from? .

 

You being very helpful. thanks 

post #10 of 19

There is many options like:

 Agave nectar, maple syrup, honey, applesauce, pureed raisins, pureed dates, pureed bananas, erythritol, coconut sugar, brown rice syrup, rapadura, molasses, sucanut, stevia, muscavado, turbinado, damara, xylitol, saccharin, splenda, and cane sugar. 

 

Each one of these options comes with its own set of issues that you will have to take into consideration when baking. You cannot just add, subtract or substitute an ingredient in a recipe for the hell of it. BAKING IS A SCIENCE!!!! It is not said that baking is a science to make baking "more special".......it is truth!!!

In the culinary cooking one can add, subtract and substitute fairly easy without making too much of a mess and find the balance in a dish. Baking YOU CANNOT.

 

The reason why I am capitalizing those words is for you to understand the VITAL importance of ingredients in a recipe and why we do the things we do in the recipe to make the baked recipe work. SUGAR is MANDATORY in baking......period. So stop baking if you do not wish to make something proper or be resigned to hard to eat items. 

 

Sugar and butter are not BAD for you in small amounts and moderate supply. Butter is in fact the only way we can get our K2 vitamin that our body NEEDS in order to assimilate vitamin D from the sun and Omega 3's from fish. You cannot properly do so without. Honey is one of the oldest forms of sugar used in baking and is very healthy and delicious for you. Raw, unpasteurized honey from a local apiary (beekeeper) is full of nutrients from your local environment. Painting ingredients as a black and white or all or nothing mentality has NEVER served us or our bodies well. BTW, agave nectar is actually not good for you because of the mass amounts of processing that goes into it......just so you know if you are trying to be "healthy".

 

So when a recipe calls for 1 cup of sugar........put 1 cup of sugar, or 3/4 cup of honey, or 3/4 cup of agave nectar, or 1 cup of coconut sugar, or.......well you get the picture.

 

Not trying to be harsh.....just being clear ;)

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fablesable View Post
 

Is there a particular reason as to why you are omitting butter and sugar?? 

 

In the fermentation process of raising yeast for bread, sugar is a mandatory thing ......not an option. 

 

As for biscuits, you have to use some sort of sugar product in the appropriate amounts to achieve a proper outcome.......if you do not then you will have to get used to hard to bite into cookies and bread.

 

There are lots of options to choose from so don't hesitate to ask if you are trying to avoid "sugar" and "butter" because of health reasons. :) 

 

PS: Adding more butter without the addition of a sugar is pointless as you NEED the sugar to achieve the right texture and fermentation for biscuits and bread. 

 

 

Bread is simply flour, water, yeast, and salt. Sugar is not necessary in every recipe to activate the yeast.

There are many recipes out there that may use butter and sugar and to that end will give you a softer more  delicate crumb.

 

The dense country style loaves rely on a poolish, Levain, or other such starter.

Because the starter has been allowed to sit out to attract wild yeasts, it naturally create sugars that will feed the yeast.

 

As for biscuits, sugar is great for something like strawberry shortcake, but for simple breakfast biscuits or the like it too is not necessary.

There are savory types of biscuits that have no sugar at all.

post #12 of 19

Thank you @Chefross that is very true for certain types of bread and biscuits. If you would like to leave a proper recipe and instructions for the OP I am positive that will help them in further baking applications. 

 

The recipes that the OP has quoted as to using however, will NEED the sugar unless they go through the proper steps to maintain a poolish or to find savoury recipes for biscuits. I believe if we re-read what the OP is trying to do that is not the case.....they are just omitting necessary recipe ingredients for the sake of omitting.....not because they are exploring the science aspect of baking. This person is a newbie to baking and going through the whole science behind baking was not on my agenda yesterday (I was trying to be short and clear on why the recipes the OP had were not working out and omitting ingredients just BECAUSE is not a good thing without taking a crap load of time.....lol) however, I am sure if you have the time you can do so for the OP and they would very much appreciate it, as we all would. :D 

 

As for the OP biscuits.....they are actually trying to achieve cookies (hence the ingredients of peanut butter, vanilla, etc and changing butter to oil with the omission of sugar by the OP's own words)......not the biscuits we make over here ;)

post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fablesable View Post
 

Thank you @Chefross that is very true for certain types of bread and biscuits. If you would like to leave a proper recipe and instructions for the OP I am positive that will help them in further baking applications. 

 

The recipes that the OP has quoted as to using however, will NEED the sugar unless they go through the proper steps to maintain a poolish or to find savoury recipes for biscuits. I believe if we re-read what the OP is trying to do that is not the case.....they are just omitting necessary recipe ingredients for the sake of omitting.....not because they are exploring the science aspect of baking. This person is a newbie to baking and going through the whole science behind baking was not on my agenda yesterday (I was trying to be short and clear on why the recipes the OP had were not working out and omitting ingredients just BECAUSE is not a good thing without taking a crap load of time.....lol) however, I am sure if you have the time you can do so for the OP and they would very much appreciate it, as we all would. :D 

 

As for the OP biscuits.....they are actually trying to achieve cookies (hence the ingredients of peanut butter, vanilla, etc and changing butter to oil with the omission of sugar by the OP's own words)......not the biscuits we make over here ;)

 

 

I realize what you are saying, but I was responding to YOUR comment and not the op's.

 

But....for her sake I offer the following:

 

Basic French Baguette

 

Yields 3 14-16" baguettes

 

2 1/2 cups tepid water

1 Package yeast (usually use rapid rise)

5 1/2 -6 cups high gluten flour (bread flour)

2 1/2 teaspoons of salt

 

Dissolve yeast in water and allow to sit for 5 minutes. Stir in flour one cup at a time stirring in the flour before adding more.

After 2 cups of flour are in, add the salt and continue to stir in the rest of the flour.

 

When you can no longer stir the mixture, pour it out unto a floured counter top and add remaining flour until you have a dough that is not sticky.

Knead the dough for 10 minutes and place in a oiled bowl.

 

Cover with plastic wrap that has been brush with oil.

Allow the dough to double in bulk (approx 2 1/2 hours) in a warm place.

 

Remove dough and punch down.

Allow to rest 15 minutes.

Cut dough in thirds and shape into baguettes. (plenty of videos on YouTube to show you technique)

 

Cover with towel and allow to double in bulk ( about another hour)  

Preheat oven to 450 degrees and place a small oven proof dish on the bottom shelf.

Slash the loaves.

Just after placing bread in oven pour 1 cup of boiling water into that pan, close the door

Bake 18-20 minutes or until brown.

 

Biscuits depend more on handling then ingredients used. The less you handle the dough the fluffier they are.

Basic recipe is usually:

 

all purpose flour

baking powder

sugar

salt

eggs

milk

post #14 of 19

Thank you so much @Chefross you are awesome!!


Edited by Fablesable - 7/27/15 at 10:22am
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 

     Fablesable

 SUGAR is MANDATORY in baking......period.   So stop baking if you do not wish to make something proper or be resigned to hard to eat items

''Not trying to be harsh.....just being clear''  , 

 

''.if you do not then you will have to get used to hard to bite into cookies and bread.''

 

------------Yes you have been harsh! , you are taking your answer personal  rather than professional, if you felt  you were harsh, than you were  harsh.

Sometimes when are being clear, than we are being harsh, (depending on the tone).

 

Others chef's  answers were friendly! and offering suggestions without personal attacking statement.

 

  

post #16 of 19

Now, don't read things into a post. When you posted your biscuits and bread turn out hard. Well someone with a lot of experience and knowledge goes right into troubleshooting

mode. It is a fact that when one labels a finished product, brownie, cookie, etc. To achieve a desirable product it needs scientifically and chemically core ingredients.

I think that Fablesable was hitting a wall when she suggested something. The simple fact is that you will probably not reach a desirable product unless you change ingredients, formula, method and procedure. I would definitely suggest just Googling in the ingredients you want to use and try to find a recipe. There is always one available somewhere.

I think she was telling you just that, and to continue to stretch the ideas or recommendations would be an exercise in futility. That's all. nothing personal.

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FOR YEARS I LIVED TO WORK! NOW I WORK TO LIVE!
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post #17 of 19

Thank you @panini I was obviously failing miserably that day to get a point across.....lol

 

@Jent I apologize if you took it all personally as it was not meant in that tone nor manner. That is why I wrote in that it was not meant to be harsh but trying to give you a quick download into why we do what we do in the baking world. I clearly did not succeed however, I was in a wee bit of a hurry so that shows me doesn't it.....lol.....don't hurry a good read!

If you were standing beside me and I was saying this it would be said more (or should be read as) in a mentoring tone. So let me give this a go again and keep it simple: you cannot take a baking recipe, omit some of the ingredients and expect it to turn out as baking recipes are more science driven and all ingredients in that recipe are mandatory for the recipe to turn out proper. I hope that makes it more clear for you. Like @panini has kindly suggested, Google some sugar-less, butter-less recipes to get one that will be formulated to work out for you without having to omit vital ingredients. @Chefross was awesome enough to start you off with a lovely sugar-free, butter-free baguette recipe. I hope you give it a try and see how it turns out!

post #18 of 19
Thread Starter 

Thank you, Yes it is much friendly , and sound suggestions, and understanding the process that is involved happy cooking /baking:thumb:

post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

Now, don't read things into a post. When you posted your biscuits and bread turn out hard. Well someone with a lot of experience and knowledge goes right into troubleshooting

mode. It is a fact that when one labels a finished product, brownie, cookie, etc. To achieve a desirable product it needs scientifically and chemically core ingredients.

I think that Fablesable was hitting a wall when she suggested something. The simple fact is that you will probably not reach a desirable product unless you change ingredients, formula, method and procedure. I would definitely suggest just Googling in the ingredients you want to use and try to find a recipe. There is always one available somewhere.

I think she was telling you just that, and to continue to stretch the ideas or recommendations would be an exercise in futility. That's all. nothing personal.

 

I will add....

At least once a week someone will join CT asking for help.

We all rally around and try to teach (in a few posts) that which has taken us a lifetime to learn.

Like how to choose and follow a recipe without the willy nilly substitution of ingredients according to our whims.

 

After enuf of these types of posts we become frustrated  and sometime bark.

@Jent just happened to be the lucky one at the end of Fablesable's rope.

We are all human (even me lol) and shit happens sometimes.

 

Just always remember.... like baseball there is no crying in the kitchen.

 

That's all.

 

mimi

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