Originally Posted by BrianShaw
Oh. Ok Rick. Whatever you say.
How does the info about you Vic and Wustie apply then??
It applies as I am establishing how hardness affects toughness, it's very basic engineering principle and completely applies here. The accident resistance of your Shuns, being clad knives, simply doesn't apply to the OP which assumed such an advantage of cladding. On the other hand you could have stated that for the hell of it you were just giving a benchmark for cladded knives, instead of giving the appearance you didn't read the post carefully enough.
Originally Posted by manmachine
Honyaki, or differential hardening, is exclusive to carbon steels. Stainless steels can not be differentially hardened, even the high-carbon ones. That is why they use laminate steel: hardened steel and softer steel welded together. This mimics the effects of differential tempering, or honyaki or whatever version of the process. What I found bizarre is that I had assumed that laminate steels would use something like VG-10 for the blade and then a carbon steel for the rest of the knife, but in fact that is never the case(from what I've seen), and sometimes it's the other way around. I can not conceive of any advantage to a carbon blade clad with cheap stainless b/c you still need to maintain your blade and the cheap stainless can still corrode relatively easily. I also find it suspicious that only cheap stainless is ever used. Why not weld hard VG10 to soft VG10, or at least 440C, and get a superior knife?
Shun Classic Pro Series knives are solid VG10, as are others. I posted another post with a link, but it is awaiting moderation.
I find this ridiculous. Blades made of the proper high carbon tool steels using proper differential hardening will not break from minor impacts. At worst, the edge might get knicked. There are plenty of videos of swords/knives made of these steels and do not break even when used to break cinderblocks and bricks. Of course, if you're referring to classic Japanese carbon steels, then that may not be the case.
MM you are a bit all over the place here, but I'll answer some stuff.
Your speculations on why and how to use laminations show no understanding of the actual facts as I know them. The stainless used for the jigane is plenty non corrosive, cheap because it doesn't need to be anything else, and soft, like it's iron cladding counterpart, because that helps dampen shock to the cutting edge, which some people find especially attractive on certain knives.
Hitachi does make a san mai steel that has jigane that takes a temper, it is meant for field knives and at this time no one seems to see a need for it in kitchen knives, though it might be nice for something like a flexible fillet knife.
True layered steel knives, those containing no core steel, are typically made of a hardening and non hardening steel, and this allegedly adds to their toughness, but I've never seen any numbers, and this does not produce an edge as good as monosteel, at least no one has ever shown it to. Even Devin Thomas only speculates that some of his layered work with AEB-L may offer "certain" advantages over the monosteel.
I did a google search and in fact stainless is not so amenable to DHT, but there is at least one company claims the ability. I meant to correct myself there as it has been said that the Suisin Inox Honyaki is in fact not a real honyaki.
It would be difficult to weld a "hard" VG-10 edge to another piece of steel by any method I know of, though it is possible someone could come up with a process that protected the edge from the heat of welding with perhaps an induction heated silver solder or electron beam. Doing this with 2 pieces of VG-10 though is a bizzare consideration to me, given there is no advantage and VG-10 is expensive material. But then again the concept of your post seemed a little bizarre to me. After all who really cares about a monosteel VG-10 blade? Oh well, I answered to it anyway and, as you sort of state, Shun's marketing team seems to think there is a demand [that they can create].
Those demonstration swords you see smashing brick and cutting wire against iron plate are just that, demonstration swords. Swords in general are tempered soft in comparison to kitchen knives and also have much thicker edges, and the demo swords you speak of even more so, not to mention the spines, or things like soft core inserts behind the edge, rounding and softening of edge sections, etc. So, what is actually ridiculous is thinking a kitchen knife should perform this way, or even a proper sword. It will be a while for technology to bring us there.
Edited by Rick Alan - 9/12/15 at 1:56am