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The causes of tart shell shrinkage

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

Up to today for making pate brisee/sucree I always used KA AP or a blend of KA AP and White Lily (WL) AP flours and my shells always shrank while baking - even after allowing the shells to rest in the freezer for a couple of hours once they were rolled out.  So today I followed Ruhlman's recipe to the letter using the 3:2:1 ratio but also using a mixture of AP and pastry flour.  What a difference the pastry flour makes.  Once baked I noticed that the shell conformed to the exact shape of the tart mold without any shrinkage and without any bulging in the well of the shell.

 

So the idea is to use a blend of flours to include pastry flour; it'll result in a lower gluten content than only if AP is used.


Edited by kokopuffs - 9/27/15 at 6:47am

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post #2 of 21

If your using good flours you can usually mix APF with cake and get a nice pastry flour %

just sayin. If you have those two on hand and no pastry flour.

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post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

If your using good flours you can usually mix APF with cake and get a nice pastry flour %

just sayin. If you have those two on hand and no pastry flour.

 

Is pastry flour higher in gluten than cake flour?

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post #4 of 21

In most cases pastry flour has a bit more protein than cake flour. Both of these flours are milled from soft wheat. APFlour is usually a mixture of soft and hard wheat flour. Bread is typically from a hard wheat.

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post #5 of 21

I know this is an unorthodox, non-Foodie culinary way, of doing the same but it wields similar results:

Incorporating cornstarch to APF drastically reduces the protein content: for every cup of APF remove 1 or 2 TBSP of flour and add the same amount of cornstarch.

 

Luc H.

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post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc_H View Post
 

I know this is an unorthodox, non-Foodie culinary way, of doing the same but it wields similar results:

Incorporating cornstarch to APF drastically reduces the protein content: for every cup of APF remove 1 or 2 TBSP of flour and add the same amount of cornstarch.

 

Luc H.

What type of flour does this produce? cake or pastry? Keep in mind, non foodies will probably buy from grocery. If it's in the south, some of the APF can be predominately soft wheat.;)

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post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

What type of flour does this produce? cake or pastry? Keep in mind, non foodies will probably buy from grocery. If it's in the south, some of the APF can be predominately soft wheat.;)


This would be for pastry flour.  I would recommend 3/4:1/4 cup of APF:cornstarch for cake flour.

 

Up here in the Great White North, domestic commercial flour is mainly made from strong Canadian prairie hard wheat. So maybe my recipe would apply more to Canucks than southern available flour based on your comment.

 

Luc H.

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post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

In most cases pastry flour has a bit more protein than cake flour. Both of these flours are milled from soft wheat. APFlour is usually a mixture of soft and hard wheat flour. Bread is typically from a hard wheat.

 

I had always thought that bread made in Europe is made from soft wheat.  And can you please cite a reference that APF is a mixture of hard and soft wheats.  8)

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post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc_H View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

What type of flour does this produce? cake or pastry? Keep in mind, non foodies will probably buy from grocery. If it's in the south, some of the APF can be predominately soft wheat.;)


This would be for pastry flour.  I would recommend 3/4:1/4 cup of APF:cornstarch for cake flour.

 

Up here in the Great White North, domestic commercial flour is mainly made from strong Canadian prairie hard wheat. So maybe my recipe would apply more to Canucks than southern available flour based on your comment.

 

Luc H.

so 28.5% cornstarch for cake and 13% cornstarch for pastry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

In most cases pastry flour has a bit more protein than cake flour. Both of these flours are milled from soft wheat. APFlour is usually a mixture of soft and hard wheat flour. Bread is typically from a hard wheat.

 

I had always thought that bread made in Europe is made from soft wheat.  And can you please cite a reference that APF is a mixture of hard and soft wheats.  8)

That reference for APF is from the old book of me.:>)

 

I'm asking questions basically to prove that anything pertaining to baking (except formulas) that is googled you will find many different answers. So it really doesn't matter if it's 2 tblsp or 22 tblsp. Flours fluctuate up and down in protein. That's why I find it better to try to achieve the right protein. 13% CS of a 10-11% APF protein is going to give you a tuff and somewhat chewy tart dough.

So there isn't any exact answer to most of these questions. A good baker doesn't know his formulas inside out, he or she knows their ingredients inside out.

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post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 

Okay I baked a lemon tart using the pate sucree (Ruhlman's 3/2/1 + 2 TBS granulated sugar).  The snap of the crust was phenomenal and the butter flavor came thru really well.  However the shell seemed just a bit thinner than a crust made with 100% AP.  And, AND the bottom of the shell was dry as usual and the flakyness predominant.

 

The next time I may experiment using a 60:40 mixture of AP + pastry flour for a bit more bulk.  And forgive me for not having mentioned this sooner but the (EDIT) low protein flour that was used was Swan's Down Cake Flour (EDIT) and not pastry flour and I'm not certain if (EDIT) the Swan's Down's performance in this recipe would differ noticeably from using a pastry flour.


Edited by kokopuffs - 9/28/15 at 8:12pm

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post #11 of 21

@kokopuffs I just have to say I LOVE the way you get right in and experiment with ingredients. You are a breath of fresh air! I have always taught the best way to truly learn in the baking and culinary world is to question everything and experiment to your heart's content. You keep showing us all how much fun it is to learn about the ingredients we use and the sources they come from. My hat off to you :D

post #12 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fablesable View Post
 

@kokopuffs I just have to say I LOVE the way you get right in and experiment with ingredients......:D

 

@Fablesable THANK YOU and my previous post was edited for better clarity.

 

And my tart shells are completely prebaked for 45 minutes at 385-425F prior to filling, and mostly on the bottom rack and partly on the top rack.  That's how I achieve the dry, flaky bottom and a good degree of golden brownness.

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post #13 of 21


Excuse me. Could someone explain about KA -AP flour? I have never heard about.

post #14 of 21

That is shorthand for "King Arthur All Purpose" flour.

 

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/

 

Welcome to the "in" crowd. :lol:

post #15 of 21

@kokopuffs There are references on a lot of baking websites that say AP flour is a mix of high and low gluten wheats and I've read the same in a number of bread baking books over the years, including Bernard Clayton's The Breads of France & Judith and Evan Jones' Book of Bread.

 

KA, however, on their website, says their AP is from 100% hard red winter wheat.

 

I just looked at the bag of supermarket AP flour on my counter and was a little surprised to see that it also contains barley flour!

post #16 of 21

Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
 

In most cases pastry flour has a bit more protein than cake flour. Both of these flours are milled from soft wheat. APFlour is usually a mixture of soft and hard wheat flour. Bread is typically from a hard wheat.

 

I had always thought that bread made in Europe is made from soft wheat.  And can you please cite a reference that APF is a mixture of hard and soft wheats.  8)

 

@ChicagoTerry

Thanks for the references, I never did do a search.

I can't recall the ingredients in KA APF. I don't think it's a hard winter wheat, maybe? I think it would be tough to get the same hard winter with the low protein unless they are diluting with the enriching. but I think you'll find that even their APF has malted barley flour. And the additives.

I think they enrich, which is using the nutrients and such that were taken out during processing and adding them back in.. Other brands add nutrients and things other than what's found in the flour itself and cover that up by saying the are fortifying the flour.

I'm really tired, this may be all wrong!:crazy:

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post #17 of 21

@panini --From the King Arthur Website:

 

WHY YOU'LL LOVE OUR ALL-PURPOSE FLOUR

Milled from

 

100% USA-grown hard red winter wheat

Protein

 

11.7%

Our unbleached all-purpose flour is milled from the innermost heart of the wheat berry, which contains the lightest color and the richest, gluten-producing protein. It has the strength to yield high-rising yeast bread dough, yet is mellow enough for tender, flaky biscuits, moist, high-rising pancakes, and perfect scones.

Our 100% organic all-purpose flour is grown using certified organic farming methods, and is the nation's top-selling organic all-purpose flour.

post #18 of 21
INGREDIENTS: UNBLEACHED ENRICHED HARD WHEAT FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN (VITAMIN B3), REDUCED IRON, THIAMIN MONONITRATE (VITAMIN B1), RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), FOLIC ACID). 
 
Your right, It does say all hard red winter wheat. That's why I think they"re diluting to get the protein down, or they GMO their strain of flour. Most is higher protein.
Above, I went to the ingredients and nutrition prompt and copied this of their bag of APF 
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post #19 of 21

So that labeling seems to contradict what they say in their website marketing copy, doesn't it?

 

Maybe it's the addition of barley flour that brings the protein percentage down? I guess that addition makes AP flour a mixture of higher and lower protein flours.

post #20 of 21

@ChicagoTerry ,

I think you have figured it out. Malted Barley Flour is pretty low in protein(less gluten). I think the kind they use for flour has the enzymes left in it. Diastatic. If I'm remembering right,

those enzymes are proteins that get neutered with heat. Sorry, don't have any scientific names in my head. I willing to bet the KA also sells that Malted Barley Flour. I'm gonna look at lunch time.

Good work!

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post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoTerry View Post....................I just looked at the bag of supermarket AP flour on my counter and was a little surprised to see that it also contains barley flour!

 

@ChicagoTerry  and  @panini:

 

Malted barley is added to many national brands of flour.  It is an enzyme that quickens the breakdown of starch into sugar thus giving the yeast much more activity and a quicker rise.  Be advised that you check the packages of flours from boutique mills to verify that malted barley has or has not been added to the flour.  If not, the expect your yeast to work more slowly.

 

An aka for malted barley is diastatic malt.

 

My breadbaking journey began in 2000 with a four year hiatus and I have approximately four to five hundred loaves under my belt.  I feel that I've attempted every permutation in making a simple loaf of yeasted "french" bread!    :chef: 


Edited by kokopuffs - 10/8/15 at 5:25pm

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