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looking for a change , but need advice - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Thread Starter 
Ok so I think I'll take your advice Rick, and every one else who's inputted here , thank you very much, I'll be ordering the takamura tonight and working with that for a while and see what I think also my sharpening isn't perfect so I aggree with the fact I could risk destroying a perfectly good knife! Thanks for your help guys !
post #32 of 59
You may consider having it sended to a good sharpener for a first stone sharpening.
post #33 of 59
Thread Starter 
Maybe , I'm pretty decent , so I don't see it as a huge problem , I have heard when you send knifed out there's been cases were a lot of the edge was ground away, worrying thought!
post #34 of 59

Benuser's suggestion about sending it to a good sharpener for a first sharpening has merit, but also a basic flaw - which you outlined.

 

The problem is that how do you find a decent quality sharpener?

 

Certainly Dave Martell is good.  Also Jon Broida.  

 

But all too often the market is filled with hack sharpeners who have either a motorized knife sharpener (such as a Chef's Choice) or a desire to play "Knife Expert" with a high-speed grinder.

 

Much better to do it yourself.

 

Personally, I would use my Edge Pro Apex (or an "Edge Faux" Chinese knock-off) with stones which are at least of Edge Pro quality.

 

The major problem is seen as a difficulty in getting the Edge Pro down to very low angles, so that when needed, the knife can be properly thinned.

 

However, you can make a very simple "platform thickener" that will put the ultimate lowest angle of the stone down to actually below zero degrees, by making a 2 inch thick by 3 inch wide by 4 inch long platform.

 

If it's laminated wood, then you can just glue up the strips to the right thickness.  During lamination, you can also put powerful magnets near the front of the platform thickener, near the corners, under the top surface of the platform thickener.  I would suggest they be round and flat, with the diameter of the magnets just less than the largest drill bit you readily can use.

 

For a source of plywood, you can try a local crafts store, such as Michael's, which sells a Revell brand kit of 3 inch wide hobby plywood in a bag.  

 

Once constructed  put a block of wood with its back about 55% of the thickness of the platform thickener back from the front edge of the platform thickener (for a 2 inch thickness, that would be 1.1 inch).  This will position the platform at just the right distance from the vertical pole of the Edge Pro, so that the edge of the thickener will align at just the same distance from the vertical pole as your original Edge Pro platform's front edge.  

 

Then drill a hole through the centerline of the platform, so that you can insert a bolt through the platform thickener that will allow a bolt to reach the slot in the Edge Pro platform.  Countersink that hole enough to allow for a flathead bolt to rest with the top of the bolt below the top surface of the platform thickener.  

 

Next, drill a hole through a piece of wood narrow enough to fit in the slot of the Edge Pro platform.  This will allow you to have the platform thickener and this strip of wood clamp the Edge Pro platform without putting pressure on the Edge Pro;s platform support splines. 

 

Assuming you do use plywood or some other wood product, be sure to paint or otherwise seal the entire surface of the platform thickener (and don't forget to do the same with the drilled hole - a "Q-Tip" will spread your paint, varnish or other sealant down the hole just fine).  That sealant will protect the platform from moisture problems. 

 

You can now assemble the platform thickener and use it to lower the effective lowest angle of the Edge Pro to any angle desired.  Of course, the angle markings on the vertical pole will not be usable, but anyone using an angle cube can establish angles without further problems.  And there should be enough thickness on a 2 inch platform thickener to allow for use of the drill stop collar trick for establishing consistent uniform angles between different thickness Edge Pro mounted stones.

 

Galley Swiller

post #35 of 59
Thread Starter 
Ok, been using the takamura for almost two days on 12 hours shifts and I'm just blown away by this knife. It weighs next to nothing which at first , was a bit worrying, I like heavy knifed hence the wustof, but wow, the wustoff has been put away and not came out since it does all the delicate garnishes , no problem with such a laser thin blade it slides through any thing ive tryed so far, I've even convinced my chef to pick one up he's that impressed after a brief test , now all I need to ask is angles , nw it doesn't need it , but I will probably give it a strop tonight out of habbit, angles on wustoff I was using was 20 as it is with most knifes from European cultures, now I have a feeling this knife is using a 15 double bevel, can someone verify this for me so I can more or less work out the right angle for the takamura migaki r2, just so I don't make any mistakes in future when it comes to sharpening as I tend to free hand, if there is any guides out there that can achieve the angle that is necasary I'm all ears , as for building my own apex, I can't see myself getting round to that as I'm or we are in Christmas season now, lots of tours , busy restaraunt nights , we don't stop! Thanks again for reccomending this knife , I'm in love! The misses also thanks you for tempting me to spend 130ish$ over 300 pounds! Bonus ;-)
post #36 of 59

@pricey are you right handed?  Unless marked otherwise, gyutos are asymmetric for righties.   Flat side more flat, right side more convexed for food release.  For sharpening angles you have two options

 

1) follow the factory angle.  Mark the edge bevel with a sharpie, when you sharpen, it will abrade away the sharpie.  You can easily see if your angles too high, too low, etc

 

2) Do what you want and set your own.   As a righty, I sharpen probably 12 degrees on the right side and 15 on the left.  don't measure though, that's just a guess.  At these more acute angles, you can add a microbevel on one side to strengthen the edge.

 

IMO you don't need a guide, it doesn't matter what the angle is, as long as you can hold it consistently in your sharpening session

post #37 of 59

When you have a day off, grab some wine, beer, whatever you like and spend two hours watching throuh the JKI sharpening playlist.  What you learn will be invaluable

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3jkRi1dKs&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB

 

This post by dave m is also very enlightening for new sharpeners:

 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-%E2%80%93-The-REAL-DEAL

post #38 of 59
Thread Starter 
A righty indeed, I will have a look tonight , I already can sharpen on stones and have a nice set that I bought a while back,I'm not perfect but I can keep a constistent angle more or less 90 % of the time, I hope but the sharpie idea sounds brilliant, as for the angle I'm amazed by the angle the set the knife comes with so I will stick to that . The knife bareley touches the board I find myself very delicate with it so I can't imagine the strength being an issue? I will read through those websites and watch the videos tonight after work . I found myself chopping every thing in the kitchen , just for the sake of playing with the knife, beautiful performer . Really happy .
post #39 of 59

pricey, don't be surprised if the factory primary bevel angle on your knife is 10 degrees or less.

 

MillionsKnives, at this point SG2 and R2 probably are the same, but there have been at least 2 "R2" steels, made by different steel companies.

 

Kobelco Steel ("Kobe") is the manufacturer of the steel "SG2" and its version of "R2".  It's the same steel, excepting that the "SG2" designation is used as the core steel by Takefu Special Steel in their marketing of their clad product (Takefu does not make their steel.  They buy the raw steel from firms such as Kobelco and then clad the core steel and outer layer steels before selling that product to clients, generally with a trade name that Takefu supplies).

 

The other version of "R2" steel is or was manufactured by GSB Acero Steel.  There's apparently some doubt as to whether GSB Acero is still making any "R2".

 

For a detailed description, see this post on Kitchen Knives Forum (mostly about 2-1/2 years old):  http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10067-R2-and-SG-2-steel

 

Hope that either helps (or confuses)

 

 

Galley Swiller

post #40 of 59
I would start anywhere behind the edge, at the lowest angle I'm comfortable with, and raise the spine little by little. Verify the progress by looking at the scratch pattern. You will be sure to have reached the very edge once you've raised a burr. Then it is time to do the same at the other side.
With brand new knives you should expect the factory edge to be fairly weak. Make sure to remove some steel with a relatively coarse stone, say JIS 400-500.
A lot of factory edges are not meant to be actually used. They are just to make final sharpening a bit easier.
If you keep the blade very thin behind the edge, the angles used for the very edge are not that decisive for performance. I sharpen most of my knives at some 16 degree right, 22 left. But the bevels are almost imperceptibly thin. Very different from a German sharpened at 19 degree per side.
post #41 of 59
Thread Starter 
Indeed, this is completely different to the wustoff I'm used to , even global didnt need such an acute angle, still it's all a learning curve and I'm too stubborn to just go back to German knifed besides I've fell in love with this knife so far, so now I'm aware the factory angle isn't really a finish, I've put the knife away, I have a sharpie at home so I'll use the sharpie trick, can I ask why do most people reccomend a 15 degree angle on japaneese knifed , or is this a Chinese whispers and every one has their own personalised angles to sharpen, having not used many Japanese knifed let alone sharpen , I will probably try what millions suggested with 15 on right 12 on left. Now another querie, I got a set , of whetstones not so long ago it was a 1000#6000#13000# now when I was listening to John from jki last night he specifies a finishing stone should not really exceed 6k in his oppiniom as the extra polish doesn't do kitchen knifed any favours , but from what Ive seen it does? Can that just depend on the knifes?
post #42 of 59
Millions suggested 12 on the right and 15 degree on the left. That is an excellent starting point.
post #43 of 59

That's probably about right, I don't actually know what angles I sharpen at, I never measured.  It is eyeball estimation based on knowing what 90, 45, 22.5, and half of that look like.  What I was trying to illustrate is that the right side should be a little more acute for asymmetry reasons. 

 

As for how high grit to go, I stop at 5 or 6k on double bevels.  This is preference.  If it's too slick, you can have trouble with tomato skin, onion skin,things like that.  On single bevels and straight razors, I take it to much higher grit.

post #44 of 59
Thread Starter 
Ok so , happy with the takamura , works well for my slicing dicing , ext and my arty farty garnishes, now, now I need a usuba, I think they are they called? For veg prep as in more thicker veg like squashes , pumpkins, save chipping the takamura!
post #45 of 59

Pricey - can I ask you what blade length you went for and where you bought your knife (it was the Migaki wasn't it?) from?

 

I'm in the UK too and am looking for a couple of knives

 

Cheers

post #46 of 59
Thread Starter 
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/takamura6.html

It is a brialliant blade, just don't use it on any thing that might cause any tourqe as these guys call it, any squashes or pumpkins ext , will caused chipping however any finer prep jobs slicing dicing , this thing is perfect for !
I can't knock this knife, it only chipped due to my lack of experiamve but I can't reccomend it enough, for the price , it's brilliant!
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by pricey View Post

Ok so , happy with the takamura , works well for my slicing dicing , ext and my arty farty garnishes, now, now I need a usuba, I think they are they called? For veg prep as in more thicker veg like squashes , pumpkins, save chipping the takamura!

 

Congrats on the Takamurs, but it's not an Usuba you want for what you're suggesting, their edge is far more delicate than your Takamura, used for very fine slicing and Katsuramuki (vegetable skin/paper). I don't know what you might be referring to except maybe a Chinese chef knife.

 

 

Rick

post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by pricey View Post

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/takamura6.html

It is a brialliant blade, just don't use it on any thing that might cause any tourqe as these guys call it, any squashes or pumpkins ext , will caused chipping however any finer prep jobs slicing dicing , this thing is perfect for !
I can't knock this knife, it only chipped due to my lack of experiamve but I can't reccomend it enough, for the price , it's brilliant!

Gotcha, thanks

 

I'm liking the Tanaka blue #2 240 Damascus with Bubinga handle listed on Knives and Stones (would link, but still can't for some reason)

 

post #49 of 59
Thread Starter 
Any Chinese cleavers you can reccomend, only thing I don't like about cleavers is just there blade , feels a little awkward to use. Maybe looking at a few I may pick one up, but I'm not going to rush this purchase !
post #50 of 59
With the holiday sale you can get Suien VC at JCK for $144 shipped. That is crazy value on this already high price\performance cleaver
post #51 of 59

Check your local Chinese market. I can't see the point to pay more than $20-30 for a cleaver.

Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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Gebe Gott uns allen, uns Trinkern, einen so leichten und so schönen Tod! Joseph Roth.
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post #52 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post

With the holiday sale you can get Suien VC at JCK for $144 shipped. That is crazy value on this already high price\performance cleaver

What kind of steel is this , vg10?
Is this more common than other steels for cleavers?
post #53 of 59
VC: virgin carbon
post #54 of 59
Thread Starter 
Also is it even worth picking a cleaved up just for tough veg, or is there maybe a bigger gyuto better for the work horse tasks and keep to takamura for literally softer and delicate veg prep,

Can I ask what you guys are using in your day to day basis , because I'm actually trying to work out what I need, I have a paring knife , not great but it does the job I need , got the takamura migaki can do every thing up to hardness of carrots for delicate prep wise, now I just need a work horse which could be a cleaver I guess,

As for the suien , your right its a very good price however after seeing that someone from these forums naught it , but had some problems with the bolsters on the grip I think it was , gaps in the handle , causing discomfort which then hinders performance a little I guess , sent it back, and got another which was worse, I'm now very hesitant to buy one from there.

So yes what I'm asking in short is what are you guys carrying round in your current sets , what are you using each knife for?
post #55 of 59
Thread Starter 
And what are the benefits of a carbon steel blade?
post #56 of 59
Much easier sharpening, finer grain, much sharper at the same angle. Lower costs.
post #57 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pricey View Post

So yes what I'm asking in short is what are you guys carrying round in your current sets , what are you using each knife for?

What's in my bag right now:

 

  • Suien VC cleaver - everything knife, all veg prep, boneless meat.  No problems with the handle for me, I find it very comfortable with good fit and finish.  I know the post you're talking about, and it's the only bad experience I have seen regarding the handle.  I think it's an anomaly.  You can find many more reviews on kitchenknifeforums or even the old knifeforum.  Cleavers aren't for everyone, but I started using full sized chinese cleavers a year ago and haven't gone back.  In fact, I sold off many gyutos. I can get repeatable results of cutting things very thin and evenly (and fast) with a cleaver that I can't even approach with a chefs.  It's a short and sweet learning curve.  I started reading this, and watched a buttload of old iron chef videos http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5319-Discourse-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post  Make no mistake, this is the OPPOSITE direction than you went with a lighter knife.  Cleavers are heavy and you have to learn to let the weight do the work.  On the plus side, they are exactly where you want them to be all the time and the knuckle clearance is exceptional. Anyway don't want to derail this start a new thread about cleavers if you want
  • Konosuke white steel 210mm gyuto - Very narrow, I use it like a long petty.  Scallions, chives, shallot
  • Itinomonn wa butcher - butchering around bones and joints
  • Aranyik heavy meat cleaver- beater knife for bones, squash, lobster. Cheap ($30-35 on ebay), indestructible.  This is from a Thai company makes machetes for opening coconut, so they know how to make tough steel.

  • Kochi sujihiki - boneless roasts, briskets, ham, turkey breast, bacon.  I was specifically looking for a thicker suji with no flex.  Depending on how you use it, you might want something thinner

  • Itinomonn kasumi gyuto, CCK 1103 - backups and sometimes I want a thinner knife

 

That's the normal kit, then i have others I don't pack normally.  White steel yanagiba and deba from Korin when I do fish.  Lots of other chefs/gyutos

post #58 of 59
Thread Starter 
Very interesting choice, referring the suien that you reccomended , how does that take and hold an edge, and at that, how much work will it take to get sharp again on the stones, also, when sharpening , how high do you go with the cleaver?
post #59 of 59

It's carbon steel, 62-63 HRC, very easy to sharpen.   If your technique isn't perfect, it would probably still get sharp.   It's the tiniest bit wedgy on carrots out of the box.  I spent maybe 10-15 min thinning behind the edge on 300 grit stone when I got it.  With this substantial metal behind the edge, it is less likely to fail, so edge retention has been better than my gyutos.  I like my bevel ~12 on the right and 15 on the left; can't say exactly because I never measure.  I also microbevel the right side 30+ degrees.  No chipping issues with this so far.

 

Normal maintenance of carbon knives for me is just a few swipes on a finishing stone.  Usually this is enough to bring it back.  "real" sharpening setting the bevel and everything from 1000 grit and going up I only do when the higher grit stones fail.

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