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Poor cook, looking to get into wine

5K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  atatax 
#1 ·
So I work in a tourism location and business is slow during the winter, so i have a "day off" for now, sometimes multiple in a single week. With my free time, i want to develop a better taste for wine. I started a little during the tourism season, and discovered a taste for california cabs. I've also found that whites and pinots tend to fall short. And that i quite enjoyed the tangy taste of a cheap Bolla Valpolicella, although found it lacking.

I'm looking for recomendarions for cabs, valpolicella, maybe ripasso? or other similar reds. I'll probably be drinking them alone, so nothing too kammy. Keep in mind i'm a poor cook and can't spend too much on wine. Also i live in the midwest in the US and would need to be available in that region.
 
#2 ·
I like Castello Banfi wines. I prefer reds but enjoy a good white occasionally. I prefer to cook with whites. Banfi is available in many places that carry Italian wines. They are priced from about ten dollars and up. Their Chianti is good and is available in several price points. Here is their web site http://castellobanfi.com/en/ . Brunello di Montalcino Castello Banfi is my favorite, pricey but a great red. enjoy
 
#3 ·
If your looking in Napa valley Cabs are king. There are so many good wines in California, Oregon and Washington State. I am drinking Cabs now that are from years 1997 to 2000. If you like Cabs it's hard to go down to a Merlot. Most white and Rose don't do it either. Some of the full bodied reds will make your day. When I spent time in Napa valley I like the way Opus1 did things. There are just to many to bring up. I guess it just depends on your pocketbook........The best......ChefBill
 
#4 ·
If your looking in Napa valley Cabs are king. There are so many good wines in California, Oregon and Washington State. I am drinking Cabs now that are from years 1997 to 2000. If you like Cabs it's hard to go down to a Merlot. Most white and Rose don't do it either. Some of the full bodied reds will make your day. When I spent time in Napa valley I like the way Opus1 did things. There are just to many to bring up. I guess it just depends on your pocketbook........The best......ChefBill
WOW....Opus 1? Expensive.

I find California Cabs way too sweet. Zinfandels and Merlots as well.

Actually many red wines from America are too sweet for my palate.

I understand that Americans like their sweet things, but some wines are way over the top.
 
#5 ·
Yeah, i think the main reason the Valpolicella was appealing was that it wasn't as sweet as american wines i've tried.

I think i only stayed away from Chianti because i've read its a wine to drink with food. It is hard trying to find a non chianti italian red wine around here though.

Are there wines from other old world regions i should try? Any good Spanish reds that are affordable? French?
 
#6 ·
Yeah, i think the main reason the Valpolicella was appealing was that it wasn't as sweet as american wines i've tried.

I think i only stayed away from Chianti because i've read its a wine to drink with food. It is hard trying to find a non chianti italian red wine around here though.

Are there wines from other old world regions i should try? Any good Spanish reds that are affordable? French?
There are reasonably priced wines from Spain and France but it all depends on what your wine store carries.

I have to, for example, travel well over 200 miles to get descent European wines.

Tempranillo is a great Spanish wine as is Rioja, or Nero d' Ovelo.

From France a good Bourgogne made from the Pinot Noir grape is wonderful.

Malbec is another great French wine but it is also made in Argentina and is sweeter.
 
#7 ·
There are reasonably priced wines from Spain and France but it all depends on what your wine store carries.
I have to, for example, travel well over 200 miles to get descent European wines.

Tempranillo is a great Spanish wine as is Rioja, or Nero d' Ovelo.

From France a good Bourgogne made from the Pinot Noir grape is wonderful.
Malbec is another great French wine but it is also made in Argentina and is sweeter.
Thanks for the recommendations, was able to find a Bourgogne made with Pinot Noir. Just have to decide whether to save it and share it on christmas eve or drink it before.

One thing, even googling i don't see anu d'Ovelo, did you mean d'Avola perhaps?
 
#12 ·
It may be a good idea to find as a previous poster noted, a good way to preserve an opened bottle of wine. Otherwise you will have to consume any bottle within days, which altho pleasant gets to be expensive, especially for *great* bottles.

The Coravin system is the best, but expensive. There are a few other systems, all with their weaknesses.  Maybe some day the boxed wines will have more than a couple decent offerings* (their big advantage, no need to worry about keeping the wine fresh, it *always* stay fresh ;D ).

And if you subscrive to Vivino for example, they have some well priced special deals

(*) Botabox: Old  Vine Zinfandel and Sauvignon Blanc are better than average. Might be fun to test them blind against other more expensive bottled wines.

PS. Speaking of deals, if you are interested, message me directly for more info
 
#14 · (Edited)
WOW....Opus 1? Expensive.

I find California Cabs way too sweet. Zinfandels and Merlots as well.
Actually many red wines from America are too sweet for my palate.

I understand that Americans like their sweet things, but some wines are way over the top.
Chef Ross,

Seriously? In blind tastings the Napa wines consistently beat the French with French Tasters. I've been drinking Nor-Cal Cabs for 45 years. To sweet, don't think so. Try a nice Rutherford sometime, they are known for what's called "Rutherford Dust" an exceptionally dry finish. Perhaps the sweetness to which you refer is the sweet smell of success and it all began in 1976.

Mike
 
#15 · (Edited)
It may be a good idea to find as a previous poster noted, a good way to preserve an opened bottle of wine. Otherwise you will have to consume any bottle within days, which altho pleasant gets to be expensive, especially for *great* bottles.

The Coravin system is the best, but expensive. There are a few other systems, all with their weaknesses. Maybe some day the boxed wines will have more than a couple decent offerings* (their big advantage, no need to worry about keeping the wine fresh, it *always* stay fresh ;D ).

And if you subscrive to Vivino for example, they have some well priced special deals

(*) Botabox: Old Vine Zinfandel and Sauvignon Blanc are better than average. Might be fun to test them blind against other more expensive bottled wines.

PS. Speaking of deals, if you are interested, message me directly for more info
Yeah, that Coravin system looks a bit steep and takes up a bit of space. I was thinking of just getting one of those systems with the special cork and hand pump to create a vacuum inside. Only like $10.

My roommate actually has a bota box old vine Zinfandel and I got their cab sauv, a little disappointed with the cab, but not horrible either. Probably won't buy it again.

I appreciate the offer for more info on deals, after the holidays, after I drink through anything people might of gifted me, I'll have to take you up on it.
 
#16 ·
Chef Ross, Seriously? In blind tastings the Napa wines consistently beat the French with French Tasters. I've been drinking Nor-Cal Cabs for 45 years. To sweet, don't think so. Try a nice Rutherford sometime, they are known for what's called Rutherford dust an exceptionally dry finish. Perhaps the sweetness to which you refer is the sweet smell of success and it all began in 1976.

Mike
I guess my palate must be overly sensitive to sweet then.

I too have traveled Hwy. 29 up and down the Napa Valley wineries, several times.

Perhaps the wines I tried fit my definition.

I would gladly invite a non sweet Cabernet or Merlot into my home.

Unfortunately I am location challenged and don't have access to many of the wines you speak of.

Thanks for your thoughts
 
#19 ·
so update time :)

I've had a great Chianti Classico Reserva that kind of reminded me of dark chocolate or maybe a cream stout, i think the only thing i disliked about it was i wanted some acidity. But i thought it was like an excellent dessert wine. And I've had a Sicilian red that was i think a 85%Nero d'avlo 15% Frappato blend that reminded me a little of a Pinot, but a lot better, like what i think a Pinot should be :)In a summer day or if was going to have a red in a social environment without food, i might actually prefer it to a good californian cab. I also have had a south african shiraz and a rioja neither of which i was much of a fan of, they didn't seem to have as much of a body to them, maybe a little too upfront with the flavor and i think i disliked the pepperiness they brought. 

So naturally, i have a very high opinion of Italian reds right now. Wines i was thinking about getting next: 100% nero d'avola, a ripasso because i'm too poor to try an amarone and i'm still looking for really good and cheap cab, something to have as maybe my daily glass of red to have after work that on a cook's wages i can afford to have after a day's work, so sub $15 a bottle, ideally sub $10 a bottle. Might look into a Chilean cab as i hear they offer quite good value.

any advice is welcome.
 
#20 ·
I'm looking for recomendarions for cabs, valpolicella, maybe ripasso? or other similar reds. I'll probably be drinking them alone, so nothing too kammy. Keep in mind i'm a poor cook and can't spend too much on wine. Also i live in the midwest in the US and would need to be available in that region.
I live in the Midwest, too. Sadly, you are not going to find any local wines here that are really worth your time. I've been a member of a wine club for a long time and I rarely buy wine from a store.

Finding great wine does not have to be an expensive undertaking either. In fact, you can join any number of on-line wine clubs and find fantastic and affordable wine for under $20. I'm a member of wine.com and I love their 90+ rated wines for under $20 feature (sorry...I don't mean to sound like a commercial for wine.com lol).

However, there are certain thing about the wine community that must be first understood before you start swishing it around in your glass. The first and, perhaps, most important thing to understand is almost everything about wine is a matter of opinion and subject to individual tastes and preferences. The only real way to create your own understanding of what you like and don't like is to try out as many wines as you can. But, that takes time, patience and sadly, a little bit of money.

Before you start opening bottles of wine, read as much as you can about wine, how its made, where its made, who makes it, etc. That way, you will have an understanding of why you are tasting what you are tasting when you drink a bottle of wine. After a little while, you will begin to develop your own tastes and preferences. But, more importantly, you will have an understanding of why you like a particular wine beyond how it tastes.

Normally, most beginners' first experience with wine usually happens with Cabernet. Its a common wine and can be found slowly turning to vinegar in just about every bar or restaurant from Maine to Washington State. As a result, Cabernet has become the cash cow of the California wine industry due precisely to its popularity. However, the real gem of California wine country is Pinot Noir, especially Pinot Noir from Sonoma County. But, I am getting ahead of myself here.

If you really want to learn about wine, one of the worst ways you can go about that is by picking out wines from your average liquor or wine store. These sorts of stores will feature mostly mass produced wines and offer little in the way of offerings that are representative of a particular region's wine. Usually there are one or two good wine stores in most cities that can help you out in finding good wines from the various regions and countries. But, again, you will be paying a certain amount of markup as part of your tuition. In that way, a wine club might be a better and cheaper way to go. They usually offer a very wide selection of wine without the overhead costs because they cut out the middle man.

Once you have started to develop your own preferences and have an understanding of what makes certain wines taste the way they do, your appreciation for wine will start to deepen. For example, I do not typically like Cabernet or Merlot. However, I understand why a good Cabernet is considered good and why a good Merlot (if there is such a thing) is considered good.

Also, become familiar with what vintage years were good in the various regions. One of the dynamics of wine is the same wine from the same region may be excellent one year and not so great the next. Learn what years were good years and not so good years. This is very important. You can find this information very easily with a a google search.

Learn why wine raters give various wines points and the characteristics of the wine that form the basis for their ratings. Become familiar with the terms used in wine tasting such as legs, body, finish, etc. Know what is meant when someone describes such characteristics as tanins and dryness. Learn how alcohol content effects the taste of the wine. Try not to dwell on flowery and egocentric descriptions of wines like "the wine has floral notes with hints of licorice and burnt chocolate." No one really knows what the hell they are talking about when they describe wine in this way. Its really more of a selling point for the pretentious rather than anything that is useful when it comes to explaining what a wine tastes like. At least that's the way I see it.

Wine is fun. As Galileo said "Wine is sunlight held together by water." Approach it that way and have fun with it and it will be something you will enjoy for the rest of your life.

As for recommendations, Valpolicella tends to be one of the more expensive of the Italian reds. But, you can find reasonably good Valpolicellas for under $30 like Marchesi Fuminelli Valpolicella Classico Superiore (2013) for about $28. Another reasonably good Valpolicella is Bolla La Poaine Valpolicella Ripasso (2011) at about $20.

I hope this helps.

Enjoy!
 
#21 · (Edited)
Besides the choices of wine, there's also the choices of glasses and decanters.

Many on this web site have chosen Riedel (rhymes with "needle") as the "go-to" glassware. However, Riedel is expensive (the least expensive I have seen is $7.50 per glass, in remaindered sets of four glasses), relatively fragile and breakage-prone (many Riedels are not dishwasher safe) and varietal-specific.

Personally, I would recommend Spiegelau for someone starting out in wine drinking. Much cheaper than Riedel, dishwasher-friendlier and with the appropriately thin rim.

The rims are appropriately thin (I have measured the rim thickness on both Riedel's and Spiegelau's - both are very close to 1 mm thick). And Spiegelau's have been specifically made to be dishwasher-certified.

And just this month, I have been finding Spiegelau's being sold in TJX stores (TJ Maxx, Marshall's and HomeGoods) for prices running in the $3 to $4 per glass price range, in all sizes and types for non-decorated glasses. Most of the Spiegelau stemware has been sold in two-glass cartons (white and red colors), though there have been 6-pack cartons and single glasses sold as well. Check all areas to find what any individual store might have.

I would suggest getting the following types/sizes:

White wines: 12 oz to 14 oz "tulip" bowl. This is a large enough glass to pour 6 oz into the part of the bowl below the widest part of the bowl, and then have room for swirling the wine around to allow for aroma release. This is the basic glass. It can also do double duty for general reds.

For more full-bodied reds, a tulip-shaped bowl with about 18 oz total capacity, but with about 6 oz below the widest part of the bowl.

For really full bodied reds, such as Pinot Noirs, Burgundies and Bordeaux's, a 24-oz or larger bowl would be appropriate. Here, I would suggest going online and seeking out the Spiegelau Hybrid Bordeaux or Spiegelau Hybrid Burgundy glasses (I haven't seen them at any TJX stores). These glasses are very close in shape to the Zalto Denk'Art stemware, but about 10% of the cost. Riedel doesn't make anything comparable. They are running about $6 per stem in 6-packs or 12-packs, though you will also have to factor in shipping.

For champagne (and other sparkling wines), you probably will want flutes. Look for flutes with a rounded bottom and sides that taper inwards when rising to the rim. That way, you will get the maximum amound of sparkling wine volume with a minimum of surface area. I've seen (and bought) the Spiegelau's I've come across at $2 to $3 per stem. I've also comparatively measured them with Riedels and the IKEA "Ivrig" flutes. All have 1 mm rim thickness, and have the appropriate shape to maximize volume and minimize surface area.

Decanters are also part of the game. You don't have to spend much on them. What you want is to use them to aerate your wines, especially young reds. Pouring the wine from the bottle to the decanter adds quite a bit of air to the wine, and having a broad base also aids in aeration/oxidation of a young red. You should also look at how well the wine pours from the decanter.

Decanter brands aren't at all critical. Going to a thrift store will work fine. Using a clear glass, broad bottomed, narrow neck vase will work fine. What you should also look for is how well you can clean what you are using for a decanter.

If you want something especially made for decanting, look at the shape of the Riedel Merlot. It's simple, easily cleaned and specifically made so the contents of a 750 ml bottle will reach a specific point in the decanter. I've been seeing (and buying) a Spiegelau water decanter that's been selling at TJX stores for $10. Virtually identical in size and shape to the Spiegelau "Casual" decanter (and extremely similar in shape to the Riedel Merlot decanter), but less than 1/3rd the cost of the Spiegelau Casual and 1/4th the cost of the Riedel Merlot. I've also bought Riedel "Swirl" decanters for $13@. All that in the past month at TJX stores.

Just a few notes: 1) on measuring, I use a machined dial gauge caliper, which measures to 1/1000[sup]th[/sup] of an inch (0.001"), with 1 mm being 0.039 inch. 2) Spiegelau is a separate company from Riedel, but Spiegelau is owned by Nachtmann and Nachtmann is owned by Riedel (Riedel bought Nachtmass - and Spiegelau - in 2004). Spiegelau has a separate management from Riedel. Riedel distributes its own brand and Nachtmann in the USA through Riedel USA (wholely owned by Riedel), but Spiegelau is distributed in North America by Libbey, a rival. Go figure.

Galley Swiller
 
#22 · (Edited)
wish i read this before heading into town :)

So my last paycheck was a bit bigger than i was expecting and wine.com didn't recommend ordering unless you did expensive overnight shipping because of the weather, so i went on a little splurge on my trip in town.

I got a bottle of 2012 burklin-wolf dry riesling as my attempt to try to get into white wines as well. Sallier De La Tour Principe Di Comporeale Nero D'Avola 2011, to try a non blended Nero D'Avola. A Langhe Nebbiolo 2013, to try a Nebbiolo, a 2012 tenuta sant'antonio valpolicella superiore ripasso, and finally a 2014 Mark West Pinot Noir, it was on sale at the local super market for $10 flat, and because i've had 1 or two pinots i liked, i think its just that they are so variable that its a risk buying them, so i need to find a cheaper one i like, then once i do that i can look for better quality pinots in that specific region and probably like those a lot and fuck it, i think i used it in a stew once a couple years ago and it wasn't bad.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Atatax -

I love your enthusiasm.  I think everyone who takes an interest in wine should take a lesson from you and jump in with both feet!  :)

One of the features about wine.com is they are concerned about weather delays in terms of shipping.  Winter is not the best time of year (lol obviously) for wine to sit on truck getting cold, especially red wine.  I neglected to mention with a wine shipping service, you should make it a practice to be aware of the weather conditions between where you live and where the wine is being shipped from.  I had to learn that lesson the hard way. 

As for your selections, great choices!  However, you should be aware of the vintages of some of your selections, such as the Nebbiolo, make a dramatic difference.  For instance, a 2013 Nebbiolo would be typically considered very "young."  In fact, many wine producers will not release their Nebbiolo within a minimum time of four years.  So, the 2013 Nebbiolo probably has not had enough time in the bottle to be a good example of the varietal.  The dilemma this causes is that Nebbiolo wines tend to be on the more pricey side of the Italian wines.  A good bottle of Borolo, for instance, could cost over $100/bottle or more depending on its vintage.  I suppose the same could be said for just about every wine varietal.  But, the average cost for a good to very good bottle of Borolo will be around $40 - $60 per bottle, again, depending on the vintage.  

However, there is funny little thing about wine.  Price does not always reflect quality.  Some of the best wine I have ever had was under $25/bottle and some of the worst wine I have ever had was upwards of $100/bottle.  So, its not a strict "you get what you pay for" scenario.  But, like I said previously, if you know the specific years where a wine region had a better than good production, you can gain access some excellent wines from not-so-expensive wine makers operating in the region.  For instance, 2010 was a very good year in Piedmonte, Italy, even for the little guy wine makers who sell their wine for a fraction of what the more expensive wine makers sell their wine for.  Therefore, you can locate one of these smaller, less expensive wines and get a great bottle of wine very cheap.  I found a Borolo made by one of these small guy wine makers on wine.com for a 2010 vintage who was selling the wine for $14.99 per bottle!!  $14.99 for a Borolo is unheard of, especially for such a good year!  So, I bought two cases.  The wine is superb!  Obviously, these sorts of gems are not common.  But, it is an example of what you can find if you know what to look for.  Again, please forgive me for sounding like an advertisement for wine.com, but, that's where I found this hidden gem.  

In terms of your white wine selection, Riesling is one of my favorite whites.  However, the general rule with white wines is the "younger, the better."  I try not to buy any white wine that is more than 3 or 4 years old.  White wine typically does not last long in the bottle for various reasons like some reds.  So, a 2012 Riesling is likely on the downside of its bottle life and probably not the best representation of the varietal.  A good way to illustrate what I am talking about would be to buy an inexpensive Riesling that is no more than 2 years old and compare it the 2012 Riesling.  The differences between the two should be noticeable right off. 

The same general rule applies to Chardonnay, Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon Blanc etc.  But, again, these are only general rules and by no means do they strictly not apply in every case. 

Then, there is Pinot Noir.  Ahh....Pinot Noir....the spoiled little step child of the wine world.  Like a spoiled stepchild, when Pinot Noir is good, its very good.  When its bad, it is ohhhhh so bad.  Many wine makers consciously choose not to make Pinot Noir because the grapes are incredibly temperamental and notoriously difficult to work with.  However, when the gods, the planets and the stars align just right, there is no wine on this earth than can match the flavor of a good Pinot Noir.  However, the true beauty of Pinot Noir lives in the fact that it is so difficult to make.  The level of care and skill that goes into making a good Pinot Noir is one of the reasons I like it so much.  A good Pinot Noir is truly a work of art.

Pinot Noir is one of the few reds that follows the same general 3-4 year rule that applies to white wines that I described above.  Pinot does not last long in the bottle either.  At most, maybe 6-8 years under ideal conditions.  As such, try to look for a Pinot Noir that is no more than three years old.  A great Pinot Noir for under $20 is Shug 2013 Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir. Make sure its the Sonoma Coast and not Carneros.  If you can't find the 2013 Sonoma Coast vintage, 2014 is excellent as well and is also under $20. 

You can find a chart on line with a simple google search that shows each wine region and the ratings for each production year. 

If you have any questions, let me know.  I would be happy to answer them.  If you run into a wine that you particularly liked, let me know as well.  I'm always on the lookout for a good wine.  :)

Cheers!

-V
 
#25 ·
My guess is that the breakage is where the bowl and stem are joined.  If you (carefully) feel where the stem and bowl meet, there probably will be a noticeable recession.  That is a location which can concentrate local force, including torque (twisting force).  

If the glasses are breaking when hand-washed, then check to see if the glasses are being held by the stem.  If so, then washing and drying the bowls when holding by the stem can cause sufficient torque to start a microfracture, which then continues in a cascading sequence of continuous fracturing, resulting in glass breakage.

The solution for hand-washing glasses is to hold the glass by the bowl (with the stem simply nestled next to the base of the joint between the middle and index fingers).  That way, there is no pressure on the stem and all pressure is through the bowl, which acts as a dome and can easily transfer force throughout the bowl.

If you want to reduce risk further, you can consider the Spiegelau Adina or Adina Prestige lines.  The bowl and stem are a single piece of crystal.  These have been among the Spiegelau's being sold this month through TJX (at $3.99 per glass).

Galley Swiller
 
#26 ·
ok, i've consumed all of the wine i bought, plus i drank a glass of Shug 2014 Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir and a bottle of 2013 Tenuta Olim Bauda Barbera D'asti

I feel like the sentiment that i've never had a bad Italian wine still holds true. The Barbera was probably my least favorite, but was still quite good, didn't struggle finishing it. The Ripasso and the Nebbiolo were my favorite. I'm working on my first glass of the Shug Pinot and i feel like i finally get why Pinots are good, its probably my favorite non italian wine.
 
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