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When did demi-glace lose the roux? - Page 3

post #61 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post

Love it :~)

I have nothing but respect for the greats that came before me, without them I wouldn't be where I am today. I firmly believe a solid foundation is the cornerstone in becoming a chef. By the same token I don't hold much to the notion of there being only one "the" way to do any thing under the culinary sun. Even the classical French chefs of past years don't agree among themselves.

Bechamel, mornay, and hollandaise are three sauces that are perfect examples. Hollandaise/ clarified butter or no?/ melted butter or softened?/ vinegar at the start or to finish?/ etc. etc. etc.

The vast majority of facts, aren't.

At my present employment, I am called upon to make a thickened milk sauce with a scant touch of nutmeg on a fairly regular basis. Due to the popularity of gluten free at the moment, we thicken it with rice flour. When I make it, I start off with melted butter that I stir rice flour into and then cook on low heat for 7 minutes (hesitant to call it roux due to the possibilty of being pulled over to the curb by "the" police.)  A younger sous chef asked me why I bother to make a butter/rice flour concoction first because a slurry would work just fine. My reply was that the mouth feel wouldn't be the same without the butter and I feel  that using it delivers a closer flavor profile to the way I was originally shown to make the sauce 30+? years ago. I am just glad that I don't have the burden of having to come up with our public description or name for the final sauce because it keeps me from facing liability, lawsuit, or derision issues.

An interview question that I have been known to ask is "What numbers between 1 and 10 when multiplied will give you 21?" the standard answer is 3x7. I then ask " What about 5.25x4?" I don't do this to be a wise ass (although I am), I am looking at the reaction because it gives me a glimpse into how open the mind is.

Some great points here.

For the classifications of the sauce, I think that if you were to make a bechamel sauce, you are making a sauce that is thickened milk flavoured with onions, bay leaves, and cloves. If you thicken it with a rice "roux" what's the difference? The classification calls for a roux but the definition of a roux can change. It doesn't have to be wheat flour, it has to be starch.

Thing is, that's mother sauces. I agree that there are numerous ways to go about making the mother sauces (Sauce aux tomates Is a great example. In Escoffier time it was made with a roux, but today it's agreed that it's not.)

But one thing they are all in agreement in is the garnishes for classical dishes. There's a reason you memorize them, because that standard doesn't change.

As for the numbers question... I like the smart ass aspect of it. A smart ass reply to they answer you gave is that the question is misleading. You said "numbers" but does that imply rational numbers, whole numbers, etc? LOL Would an answer of 2i=21 be correct?

I'm not saying we need a straight jacket or anything. What I am saying is that when you are talking about garnishes for classical dishes, that's where things get sticky.

How you make your mother sauces is another issue altogether. For instance, I've seen a hollandaise thickened that doesn't need butter, but is that a hollandaise?

On the other hand, if you tell me a sauce robert is a brown sauce with mushrooms and ham, with a bit of yellow mustard whisked in, would we agree that it's no longer a Robert Sauce?

Then I guess the question is really, at which point do we change the classification of a classical standards and/or garnish? In the case of the original question, demiglace (which literally means "half glaze") isn't currently a demi by the name status but more of a glace. (glace if I remember correctly is 1/10th)

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post #62 of 67
@welldonechef, remember, too, that there's nothing like the red seal exam in the states. I won't comment on the usefulness or reasonableness of a government sanctioned culinary standard- only that I think I've read people, perhaps on this very forum, perhaps Cordon Blue students trying to get help on their homework, claim vinaigrette as a mother sauce. So I'm pretty happy if people acually know the classics, even if they choose not to adhere to them too closely.
post #63 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grande View Post

@welldonechef, remember, too, that there's nothing like the red seal exam in the states. I won't comment on the usefulness or reasonableness of a government sanctioned culinary standard- only that I think I've read people, perhaps on this very forum, perhaps Cordon Blue students trying to get help on their homework, claim vinaigrette as a mother sauce. So I'm pretty happy if people acually know the classics, even if they choose not to adhere to them too closely.

Ah, now I see what you mean.

Culibary wise.. the vinaigrette thing tickled my brain a bit there... In cold preparation there are two classifications of cold "sauces", vinaigrette and mayonnaise. Maybe that's where the issue comes from.

For standards here in Canada, we use the Gisslen and On Cooking.

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post #64 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by welldonechef View Post

For the classifications of the sauce, I think that if you were to make a bechamel sauce, you are making a sauce that is thickened milk flavoured with onions, bay leaves, and cloves. If you thicken it with a rice "roux" what's the difference? The classification calls for a roux but the definition of a roux can change. It doesn't have to be wheat flour, it has to be starch.

Thing is, that's mother sauces. I agree that there are numerous ways to go about making the mother sauces (Sauce aux tomates Is a great example. In Escoffier time it was made with a roux, but today it's agreed that it's not.)

 

 

So who confirmed that tomato sauce doesn't have roux in it anymore? What about pork bones? And if we agree now that tomato sauce doesn't need roux, or even shouldn't have roux (or pork bones), why does this line of thinking not extend to something like demi-glace? At what point do we say to ourselves, collectively, that demi glace no longer refers to 50/50 espagnole and veal stock, but now just a heavy reduced veal stock? If I forego a roux to thicken my demi glace and just use reduction, is that an acceptable form of thickening? What's the difference? 

 

Would it still be bechemel if I used all the flavoring but thickened with a slurry? Or if I used a buerre manie instead of roux? Is roux the essential ingredient in bechemel (ANY roux?) or is it the other stuff? 

post #65 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Someday View Post

So who confirmed that tomato sauce doesn't have roux in it anymore? What about pork bones? And if we agree now that tomato sauce doesn't need roux, or even shouldn't have roux (or pork bones), why does this line of thinking not extend to something like demi-glace? At what point do we say to ourselves, collectively, that demi glace no longer refers to 50/50 espagnole and veal stock, but now just a heavy reduced veal stock? If I forego a roux to thicken my demi glace and just use reduction, is that an acceptable form of thickening? What's the difference? 

Would it still be bechemel if I used all the flavoring but thickened with a slurry? Or if I used a buerre manie instead of roux? Is roux the essential ingredient in bechemel (ANY roux?) or is it the other stuff? 

It's about what the standard is these days. If you take a look at the course books for the apprenticing trade, then you understand what the classification and standards are.

As for your question on thickening of mother sauces... Again, a béchamel for example means a thickened milk flavoured with onion, bay leaf, and cloves. How you thicken it can be with a starch and fat (and that usually means that it's wheat flour and a fat) so the answer to your beurre manier thickening a béchamel is yes, technically it's a béchamel. If you use a slurry, then yes its thickened with a starch, and so that fits the classification.

Again, it's not about HOW you make the mother sauce, it's about what the mother sauce IS. Why doesn't tomato sauce have pork bones in it? Somewhere along the line that got changed.

Tomato sauce with roux used to be taught, but today's standard has removed the roux. This is nothing new, and can easily be found by opening the book and looking at what we use today.

For example, in the states there are a few major schools teaching the apprenticing program ACFEF and they have a set standard mandated by the government of the curriculum and standards you are to complete to get your ACF certification. These are clear standards set out since 1979.

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post #66 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Someday View Post
At what point do we say to ourselves, collectively, that demi glace no longer refers to 50/50 espagnole and veal stock, but now just a heavy reduced veal stock?

Because heavily reduced veal stock is it's own thing that has its own name.  If everything is being "promoted" one letter grade can we just call brown stock glace de viande?:lol:

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #67 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post

Because heavily reduced veal stock is it's own thing that has its own name.  If everything is being "promoted" one letter grade can we just call brown stock glace de viande?lol.gif
and then we'd start calling the bones "stock."

Jason Sandeman

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