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Looking for help deciding on starter knives

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

Welcome to here.   Gyuto is roughly the shape of a french chefs knife, but with harder steel.   It's the all purpose knife that is good for everything that isn't butchery or fish.  Sujihiki is the equivalent of a protein slicer/ carving knife.

 

You should repost your question in the knife sub forum and you'll get a lot more advice  http://www.cheftalk.com/f/71/cooking-knife-reviews

 

BTW don't discount a humble chinese cleaver as your all purpose knife :D

post #2 of 17
So then what you are saying is that the sujihiki's primary purpose is more for butchering IE separating the tendons and bone?
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 

No.  Sujihiki is for slicing boneless protein like a roast.  Or slicing some raw meat into thinner raw meat.

 

 

For butchery you want butchery knives but there are many schools.  Meat cleavers,  boning knives,  breaking knives, cimeters, bone saws, etc.

 

I can do pretty much anything with this http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-170mm-wa-butcher/ , a breaking knife and a bone saw

post #4 of 17
Due to circumstances I have recently just entered what I would define as a stable financially for the first time since living on my own. I have always wanted Japanese steel simply because of the heritage and craftsmanship they have. I have been told that buying a "set" of knives is silly and should just buy knives individually. I have had my eye on the togeharu molybdenum line for the added toughness of the metal. I also plan to begin sharpening my own knives once I feel comfortable enough, my other reason for the added molybdenum.

The 3 piece set I have my eye on is
Togaharu molybdenum Gyutou (8.5")
Sujihiki (10.5")
Petty knife (5.9")

I found these all off of Korin after seeing another in a post mention the site. I am 100% open to other brands of knives but more closed on the forging process.

What I am looking for in my chef's knife is what we are all looking for utility and I would like am edge that I don't have to sharpen extremely often. I would say I could use a lighter than average chefs knife because for me force exerted isn't a problem.

Far as the others go I am a novice and have yet to use them so let me know what you think
post #5 of 17

Molybdenum is just an element in near trace quanitities in a fair few of the decent stainless steel alloys. It does add toughness relative to not having it, but the amount it's accentuated is more about the marketing of the knife/steel. Bottom line, Togiharu is choosing to identify that line as having a steel with molybdenum in it. Unfortunately, lone point that molybdenum adds toughness still doesn't really give you a good understanding of how tough the steel is versus other Japanese knives, and depending on the hardening of the steel, is probably not going to be as tough as the Western knives most people are more accustomed to. 

 

See http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php

I just quickly looked at VG10, AUS8 and 10, the 440 steels. Each has some amount of molybdenum in its chemical composition.

 

If your priority is going longer between sharpenings, then maybe consider looking at knives with HRC in the 60ish range, and don't go too acute on your angles.

 

Keep on reading and browsing around, lots of goodies will continue to turn up :)

post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by foody518 View Post

Molybdenum is just an element in near trace quanitities in a fair few of the decent stainless steel alloys. It does add toughness relative to not having it, but the amount it's accentuated is more about the marketing of the knife/steel. Bottom line, Togiharu is choosing to identify that line as having a steel with molybdenum in it. Unfortunately, lone point that molybdenum adds toughness still doesn't really give you a good understanding of how tough the steel is versus other Japanese knives, and depending on the hardening of the steel, is probably not going to be as tough as the Western knives most people are more accustomed to. 

See http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php
I just quickly looked at VG10, AUS8 and 10, the 440 steels. Each has some amount of molybdenum in its chemical composition.

If your priority is going longer between sharpenings, then maybe consider looking at knives with HRC in the 60ish range, and don't go too acute on your angles.

Keep on reading and browsing around, lots of goodies will continue to turn up smile.gif

It isn't that I am looking for knives that are tougher that was just the term I used to generalize it's reasoning. It is easy to sharpen, and gets a nice sharp edge. Also increase blade durability in general. If there is a better recommendation for a better steel I'd to hear it. I don't have a low budget I am willing to put down money on a knife to pursue my trade

I have heard Damascus steel is good, but my primary complaint and extent of my knowledge is limited. The only thing I do know about "Damascus" steel is not true Damascus steel as it was once made by master smiths. as I am just beginning to use the tools I can including other Chefs I personally know.

I am new to the professional industry, and have just decided that I need to find a job as a cook since I have 1 year working in a very fast paced restaurant. I have gone as far
post #7 of 17
Dude could you help me out in lamans terms? That chart is waaay too complex. Do you know a site with a chart that list like top 50 steels or something like that? Price isn't an expense if anything I will just buy my chef's knife first.
post #8 of 17
The suisin inox from Korin get a lot of recommendations, I have no experience of them or the togiharu. They look like decent starter knives and are not expensive.
The three pieces you're proposing to buy look to be a good starting set.

Good luck on your journey.
post #9 of 17
Thread Starter 
Among korins togiharu knives, the g-1 line has the hardest steel. My cousin got this gyuto over christmas. Very nice grind, thin , light, good fit and finish.
post #10 of 17
Sorry for the confusion. My main point was that most of your decent to good stainless steels in J-knives will have some molybdenum content in them.
That said, the knives I've seen that state they are made of a moly/chrome moly steel tend to be a little soft, 57-58 Rockwell hardness (HRC).
You'll get better edge retention around 60-62 HRC.

Stainless steels to look out for: off the top of my head, AEB-L/13C26/Swedish steels, VG steels (you probably see a fair bit of VG10), AUS-10, Ginsanko/G-3

Any 'Damascus' knives under $500 bucks/not custom made are almost definitely just aesthetic patterning. No performance benefits. Probably shouldn't be referred to as Damascus at all.
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post

Among korins togiharu knives, the g-1 line has the hardest steel. My cousin got this gyuto over christmas. Very nice grind, thin , light, good fit and finish.

So what your saying is don't go for the Togaharu molybdenum set? The primary sell point for those for me was they are good for beginners learning to sharpen which I plan to learn and they are affordable. By no means so intend for them to be my final knives. Really all I would need to start is a good Gyutou and a parry right?

I have looked at the suison Inox knifes but ATM they are a little pricey for me
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by foody518 View Post

Sorry for the confusion. My main point was that most of your decent to good stainless steels in J-knives will have some molybdenum content in them.
That said, the knives I've seen that state they are made of a moly/chrome moly steel tend to be a little soft, 57-58 Rockwell hardness (HRC).
You'll get better edge retention around 60-62 HRC.

Stainless steels to look out for: off the top of my head, AEB-L/13C26/Swedish steels, VG steels (you probably see a fair bit of VG10), AUS-10, Ginsanko/G-3

Any 'Damascus' knives under $500 bucks/not custom made are almost definitely just aesthetic patterning. No performance benefits. Probably shouldn't be referred to as Damascus at all.

Thank you for the clarification!!! I will definitely take a look at the other steels you mentioned.

My primary concern is sharpening them wrong and messing it up
post #13 of 17

The Moly knives aren't going to be particularly easier to sharpen than the other commonly used decent to good stainless alloys. Or do you mean this with respect to a somewhat more cost-friendly set to practice on so you're more confident for better knives later?

 

You listed one of your preferences is to have knives that hold their edge for longer, and the Togiharu moly knives, at HRC 57, aren't really going to fit the bill as well as a line like the G-1. 

 

Are you considering buying from other vendors as well? Or are you limited to Korin?

 

Just read up a lot and watch videos like the sharpening playlist on Japanese Knife Imports Youtube channel. Practice with something you care a bit less about getting scuffed up. Use the sharpie trick and pay close attention to your progress.

post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by foody518 View Post

The Moly knives aren't going to be particularly easier to sharpen than the other commonly used decent to good stainless alloys. Or do you mean this with respect to a somewhat more cost-friendly set to practice on so you're more confident for better knives later?

You listed one of your preferences is to have knives that hold their edge for longer, and the Togiharu moly knives, at HRC 57, aren't really going to fit the bill as well as a line like the G-1. 

Are you considering buying from other vendors as well? Or are you limited to Korin?

Just read up a lot and watch videos like the sharpening playlist on Japanese Knife Imports Youtube channel. Practice with something you care a bit less about getting scuffed up. Use the sharpie trick and pay close attention to your progress.

Yes my primary reason for the Togaharu molybdenum line is the easy to sharpen.

Once I can actually trust myself to sharpen well I intend to buy a more expensive knife(s). I am not limited to the korin it is just one site that I found first. So you recommend I just get a cheap chefs knife and practice practice practice until I get good enough to trust myself? Then rather instead of buying cheap knives just buy a few nice expensive ones?
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 

No.  Sujihiki is for slicing boneless protein like a roast.  Or slicing some raw meat into thinner raw meat.

 

 

For butchery you want butchery knives but there are many schools.  Meat cleavers,  boning knives,  breaking knives, cimeters, bone saws, etc.

 

I can do pretty much anything with this http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-170mm-wa-butcher/ , a breaking knife and a bone saw

Hello Millionsknives. How is the fit and finish on this knife?

 

¡Thanks!

post #16 of 17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrimmabear View Post


Yes my primary reason for the Togaharu molybdenum line is the easy to sharpen.

Once I can actually trust myself to sharpen well I intend to buy a more expensive knife(s). I am not limited to the korin it is just one site that I found first. 

I guess I'm missing the part where the Togiharu molybdenum line is particularly easier to sharpen than other stainless alloys. It might abrade more quickly than for example VG-10, AUS-8 still feels like sharpening stainless as opposed to sharpening carbon steel when on the stones.

 

Korin Togiharu knives are fine, but there are quite a few other options in this great knife world if you want to look at other pretties :) Japanese Chefs Knife, Chef Knives to Go, Japanese Natural Stones, Knifewear, Japanese Knife Imports to name a few. Give Jon at JKI a call and you'll get some good insight into what may be a good path forward for you. 

So you recommend I just get a cheap chefs knife and practice practice practice until I get good enough to trust myself? Then rather instead of buying cheap knives just buy a few nice expensive ones?
My thought is that in the 100-150$ range for stainless, you can certainly get a good knife that is usable for a long time, but I'd go somewhere closer to HRC 60 for better edge retention, and I guess if you are really wary about the sharpening aspect, maybe stay away from VG-10 for your first few knives (although I haven't had a problem with mine). But I don't think stainless in that range is going to feel significantly different from other stainless.
If you currently have a knife that you won't get sad about scuffing up, practice on that. If you're attentive, you won't ruin a new knife besides maybe some cosmetic scuffs or some small things that you can fix with sharpening as you get better over time. I don't know if for the few nice expensive ones I'd go past the $200 per knife range for your first J-knives though.  
post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrimmabear View Post

Dude could you help me out in lamans terms? That chart is waaay too complex. Do you know a site with a chart that list like top 50 steels or something like that? Price isn't an expense if anything I will just buy my chef's knife first.


I think this is a good summary of what is in steels and their content;

 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/InformationAboutSteels.html

 

 

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