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Substituting Lard For Butter Quiche Dough Failed

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 

I failed at making this quiche dough where, for the first time, mangalitsa lard was substituted for butter.

 

I am totally livid and p*ssed.  Take a look at the photos below of the dough.  It was rolled out immediately after being taken from the fridge.  And the dough has fallen apart.  Unlike butter, the overpriced mangalitsa lard feels totally liquidy right from the fridge and look at how the dough has fallen apart on the rolling pin and rolling mat.  I can't work it and so it was thrown away.  Was this lard somewhat unrendered????  Does it seem to have a high water content?  I have never ever encountered this problem before using butter.  And there's almost a whole layer of lard remaining on my rolling pin in spite of dusting it and the rolling mat with generous amounts of flour.  What a waste of ingredients.

 

And when I weighed the 4 oz of lard, it seemed to occupy twice the volume of 4 oz (one stick) of butter.

 

6 oz flour

4 oz fat and this time its mangalitsa lard

2 oz water

 

 


Edited by kokopuffs - 3/15/16 at 6:39pm

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #2 of 31
Thread Starter 

Several hours have passed and I'm not so livid, this is what what happened based on observations and feel of the dough:

 

Probably the fat wasn't fully rendered resulting in a soggy dough.  Over hydrated.  What I plan to do is take the weight of the lard before and after I render it.  We'll see.


Edited by kokopuffs - 3/16/16 at 6:33am

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #3 of 31

koko, whenever you substitute an ingredient, it isn't always going to work the way it did with the original ingredient.

Perhaps using lard instead of butter may require the addition of extra flour to counteract the fat. 1 cup of flour to 1 stick of butter may work, but using a different fat may have been your problem. Try again. It's not the lard.

post #4 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefross View Post
...Perhaps using lard instead of butter may require the addition of extra flour to counteract the fat. 1 cup of flour to 1 stick of butter may work, but using a different fat may have been your problem. Try again. It's not the lard.

 

It IS the lard.  8))  Perhaps I should use either more flour or reduce the amount of lard.  Again four ounces of the lard I used occupies twice the volume of a similar weight of butter.  Naive me, I would have thought that a 1 to 1 substitution could be made!

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #5 of 31

In the lard making process, they add a bit of water. They could cook it long enough to melt the fat, but not evaporate the water out.  So you can have different levels of water content.

 

Butters can also have different amounts of water.  If you compare American to European butter for example, the American ones have more water

post #6 of 31

On the topic...  check out this episode of a chef's life where they make cracklings and lard :D 

 

http://www.pbs.org/video/2365094144/

post #7 of 31
This is one of those times when I wish Rulman wrote another chapter to explain that sometimes his ratios need to be adapted. It's no wonder that most other pastry recipe books have different formula depending on the fat used, or combinations of fat.
post #8 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post

This is one of those times when I wish Rulman wrote another chapter to explain that sometimes his ratios need to be adapted. It's no wonder that most other pastry recipe books have different formula depending on the fat used, or combinations of fat.


At least Ruhlman gets one into the ballpark as long as his ratios and ingredients are followed.  But yes, lard is truly a different animal as it were.  But I'm sticking to my guns.  Later on I plan to take eight ounces of my M. lard and render it some more and it's weight will be taken before and after the procedure just to see what I obtain.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #9 of 31

You are over thinking this, koko.

The most hip and expensive ingredients are not always the best.

Pick up the regular cheap lard (green box) from WM or a large supermarket.

Save the fancy expensive stuff for some other application.

 

Re-rendering?

Lordy girl you are gonna be the death of me lol  ;-)

 

mimi

 

Edit to add....if your fat is soft and fluffy at room temp the pastry will be way too soft at room temp.

m.

post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post
 

You are over thinking this, koko.

The most hip and expensive ingredients are not always the best.

Pick up the regular cheap lard (green box) from WM or a large supermarket.

Save the fancy expensive stuff for some other application.

 

Re-rendering?

Lordy girl you are gonna be the death of me lol  ;-)

 

mimi

 

Edit to add....if your fat is soft and fluffy at room temp the pastry will be way too soft at room temp.

m.

I don't sing soprano because I am a man!!!!!!!   :eek:

 

I've read that M lard makes for THE FLAKEYIST crust.  

 

Someone mentioned that lard is extremely high in unsaturated fats and therefore remains "liquid" at refrigerator (and room) temperatures.  Therefore the dough made with lard should be rolled out right from the freezer.  (There should be no intermittent defrosting).

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #11 of 31

Kokopuffs, 

     Sorry this experience made you mad. Except for the expense of specialty ingredients, I quite enjoy those experiences. I wish you hadn't thrown the dough out.

    When faced with the original situation I would have simply added more flour and adjusted, recipe be damned. These are great learning experiences for me because there is no chef or owner to yell at you or customers to disappoint.  At home I view recipes more as a guide than an absolute, adjusting whatever I like to see what effect it has. 

I love the idea of re-rendering it and weighing before and after. My engineer father would highly approve. I'm looking forward to the results. 

post #12 of 31

Sorry for stepping on your gender!!!

You have signed a few PM's with your given name and now that I think about it it is one of those "handles" that can swing either way.

 

About what you have read....I guess every opinion and recipe on the internet is not always trustworthy.

Never having used the stated brand I did a short google search and the only baked product recipe offered was biscuits.

Maybe you have a different source for recipes?

 

mimi

post #13 of 31

Lard is a saturated fat .....

Maybe a typo?

 

mimi

post #14 of 31

Lard is 38–43% saturated fat and the rest unsaturated.  

post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 

Lard is 38–43% saturated fat and the rest unsaturated.  

 

So which is it?

Saturated or not?

 

mimi

post #16 of 31

Mixture of both.  More unsaturated than butter, but less than oils.  Exact composition depends on the breed, the diet. etc.   A pig eating grain on a farm will have different fat than one foraging for hazelnuts.

post #17 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsKnives View Post
 

Mixture of both.  More unsaturated than butter, but less than oils.  Exact composition depends on the breed, the diet. etc.   A pig eating grain on a farm will have different fat than one foraging for hazelnuts.


Makes sense.

To be honest I have never "studied" lard....just learned how to use it lol.

Never had a problem with my doughs falling apart and I sub one to one.

If after resting it feels too soft I just work a bit more flour in when I am rolling it out.

 

mimi

post #18 of 31
Not long ago I had a Crisco dough that looked just like Koko's. It was too much water. Adding more flour fixed it but it still wasn't as good as if made right the first time. I know what went wrong - I dumped the water, per the ratio, without acknowledging that the dough didn't need it all. Frustrating, but an opportunity for continued learning. We all have bad days!
post #19 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post
 

Lard is a saturated fat .....

Maybe a typo?

 

mimi


But I've heard that Manga lard is higher than most lard in unsaturated fats.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Reply
post #20 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefwriter View Post
 

Kokopuffs, 

     Sorry this experience made you mad. Except for the expense of specialty ingredients, I quite enjoy those experiences. I wish you hadn't thrown the dough out.

    When faced with the original situation I would have simply added more flour and adjusted, recipe be damned. These are great learning experiences for me because there is no chef or owner to yell at you or customers to disappoint.  At home I view recipes more as a guide than an absolute, adjusting whatever I like to see what effect it has. 

I love the idea of re-rendering it and weighing before and after. My engineer father would highly approve. I'm looking forward to the results. 


I should have exercised more patience (sheesh).  But being higher in unsaturated fats, the dough and fat will act more "liquidy" therefore soggy at room temperature.  (EDIT)  Probably more flour/less water and rolling out right from the freezer would have solved the issue.  We'll see as time goes on.  M lard at $10 a pound is, indeed, a bit steep!

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #21 of 31
This is, perhaps, the most flexible of Ruelman's ratios. The "1" is "2 to 4 ounces, more or less, depending on the fat". That's a potential variation of 100%!!!!!! If only he also said "and depending on the humidity" too. He speaks to the difference in fats with regard to water content, but my experience is that difference still doesn't help nail measurements as much as one would hope. Feeling the dough is essential, and I know I don't make pie dough often enough to nail it every time. This should be the "3-2-whatever" ratio!
post #22 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post

..............................He speaks to the difference in fats with regard to water content, but my experience is that difference still doesn't help nail measurements as much as one would hope. Feeling the dough is essential, and I know I don't make pie dough often enough to nail it every time. This should be the "3-2-whatever" ratio!

Well, his book as stated got me into the ballpark.  These are my current ratios using White Lily AP flour (2g protein per serving; KA AP is 4g protein per serving):

7 oz White Lily AP flour

5 oz butter either Challenge or Land O' Lakes

4+ oz water

Pinch of salt

 

Optional pinch of sugar and/or nutmeg.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post

Not long ago I had a Crisco dough that looked just like Koko's. It was too much water. Adding more flour fixed it but it still wasn't as good as if made right the first time. I know what went wrong - I dumped the water, per the ratio, without acknowledging that the dough didn't need it all. Frustrating, but an opportunity for continued learning. We all have bad days!

 

Sometimes the flour will

post #24 of 31
Sorry my PC crashed. Sometimes the flour can be the problem as well. If left to its own devices esp in an area known for the high humidity there can be enuf extra fluid weight to make anything go sideways. mimi
post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post

Well, his book as stated got me into the ballpark.  These are my current ratios using White Lily AP flour (2g protein per serving; KA AP is 4g protein per serving):


7 oz White Lily AP flour
5 oz butter either Challenge or Land O' Lakes
4+ oz water
Pinch of salt

Optional pinch of sugar and/or nutmeg.

Yes, you understand my point: this ratio is a ballpark. Many of his other ratios are much less variable. Like custard - that's spot on, except not enough caramel for creme caramel. But the custard is perfect when using his ratio.
post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post


Yes, you understand my point: this ratio is a ballpark. Many of his other ratios are much less variable. Like custard - that's spot on, except not enough caramel for creme caramel. But the custard is perfect when using his ratio.


Made his custard last week.  Me a first-timer.  It was to die for and veeeeeery silky mouthfeel.  But agreed, I added more sugar for the brulee.   Mmmmmm, like brown glass on silk!  8)

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #27 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokopuffs View Post
 


Made his custard last week.................

 

....With the remaining egg whites I made macarroons using Peterson's recipe in his tome entitled BAKING.  Awesome sweets!  8)

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post

Sorry my PC crashed. Sometimes the flour can be the problem as well. If left to its own devices esp in an area known for the high humidity there can be enuf extra fluid weight to make anything go sideways. mimi

Indeed... same with low humidity locations. Where I am it is 29% today... but often we get down into the teens.

post #29 of 31

Mangalitsa lard is "Leaf lard" which is from around the kidneys. Some lard is hydrogenated to the extent it form bricks storable at room temperature. Leaf lard is prized for pastry as it has very little pork flavor. Home rendered lard can be made nearly tasteless if melted in hot water wherein the porky solids go into the water. Cooled in the refrigerator, the purified lard solidifies as a solid on top. Freshly rendered lard is readily available as Manteca from the Mexican meat market but it has a very porky flavor. It is, however great for savory pies.

 

Had to add my five cents.

Long before food processors, your mom made pie crust with her hands and she could tell about the ratio of lard to flour just by how it felt as it was rubbed together with just her fingertips. She dipped her fingers in ice water to keep everything cold. The best pie my mom every tasted had a pie crust made with bear grease.

post #30 of 31

@kokopuffs Heya mate I hope you are retesting your pie crust again. I am here late to the game and I have read that you are trying the ratio thing with lard instead of butter. There are a few here that mentioned more flour.....I will agree to a point as it really is all about the feel NOT the measurements on this one. I usually mix my pastry crust with lard and butter to have the best on both worlds however, when I have done all lard I will mix the flour and fat by hand to FEEL the consistency and then slowly add a wee bit of water until I like the consistency between my hands. Then I shape into a flat ball, wrap and put into fridge for 30 mins, pull it out of fridge, roll it out, shape it and then place it back into fridge for 20 mins before baking. (times are all depending of course on fridge temp and room temp you are working in too). 

 

it really doesn't matter the type of fat (per se) that you use as it is all about the right feel of consistency. Everyone always laughs at me because when they ask me if their product they are working on is okay or the right mix I always have to put my hands into it to "feel" the consistency of the mixture to tell they yea or nay.....lol. I have even used bacon fat in my pastry crusts albeit a small substitution however it worked brilliantly!!

 

Let us know how it worked out!! ;)

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