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Beef Stock "molecular"... with ice

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

Hi...

 

anyone came across doing a beef jus without roasting the bones veges etc ..and filling up the pot with ice cubes over three days and the veges also frozen ??

 

We had a Head Chef in our Hotel before me ,he used to do it and apparently got this method from El Bulli where he has been for a year or two...

 

It works somehow and gives a nice clear pretty dark jus...sometimes the jus gets a bit to bitter after reducing..

 

Just wonder if anyone knows what actually happen when you do this method...why the ice and what r the best circumstances /conditions/ingredients to perfect this method and have a consistence product

 

Cheers

from NZ


Edited by Chef37 - 6/5/16 at 4:24am
post #2 of 13

Can you explain this method in more detail?  Your description doesn't include any actual cooking, just ice and frozen vegetables. 

post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 

day one:  put cannon/marrow /neck bones in a pot with cold water ...bring it slowly to boil...turn it down to simmer...skim protein and fat... after six or 8 hrs skim again and fill up the pot with ice cubes

 

day two: 6 to 8 hours after the last skimming / filling up with ice... skim and ice again

and 6 to 8 hrs later again plus this time add your frozen veges 

 

day three: fill up with ice again...skim again...wait 6 more hrs before you strain the stock through a filter/cloth

add red wine ,pepper corns ,bay leaves etc...and reduce to preferred consistency /taste 

post #4 of 13

I have always heard that method referred to as clear stocking. The basic premise is that the ice stimulates the building of a raft. The next day, turn spigot on pot and run stock through an etamine before putting stock into a clean pot and putting back on stove to simmer another day or before putting away for storage.

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post #5 of 13

simmering stock, not reaching a boil, helps keep it clear so off the top of my head I'd say the ice serves to cool the stock rapidly and probably helps settle out anything making it cloudy. When the stock has reduced through simmering, more water is needed but adding ice, not water drops the temp so the stock isn't in the danger zone. The long three day cooking is what helps provide the dark color. Without reading the original recipe, I'd guess the frozen veggies are frozen only because they have been saved in  the freezer and adding them frozen is another way to keep the stock from the boiling point. 

Does the original recipe provide any further information? 

post #6 of 13
A combo of chefs layne and writer's posts.
The fat sticks to the ice (raft of sorts) as well as dropping the contents to a safe low temp before storage for the nite just skim it out before it melts as the fat will be released back into the stock.
Gone are the days of leaving a stockpot to simmer unchecked overnite so unless you wanna sit there and babysit you need a rapid cool down.
Then repeat for as many days as needed.
The frozen veg puzzle has been solved as well IMO.

mimi
post #7 of 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post
.
The fat sticks to the ice (raft of sorts)

it is not so much that the ice has the the physical attributes of a raft but rather that it lowers the temperature of the albumin and gelatin so that they begin to bond and form long molecules almost like a net and by doing so they begin to trap and draw impurities making for a clearer stock as long as the raft is not disturbed.

Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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post #8 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post

.

The fat sticks to the ice (raft of sorts)
it is not so much that the ice has the the physical attributes of a raft but rather that it lowers the temperature of the albumin and gelatin so that they begin to bond and form long molecules almost like a net and by doing so they begin to trap and draw impurities making for a clearer stock as long as the raft is not disturbed.

Had no idea all that was going on under the few handfuls of ice that I add to the stock to degrease when I am in a hurry to finish up the gravy and get dinner on the table lol.
Thanks Chef!

mimi
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

it is not so much that the ice has the the physical attributes of a raft but rather that it lowers the temperature of the albumin and gelatin so that they begin to bond and form long molecules almost like a net and by doing so they begin to trap and draw impurities making for a clearer stock as long as the raft is not disturbed.

best answer bro...awesome!

 

THX


Edited by Chef37 - 6/6/16 at 4:30am
post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefwriter View Post
 

simmering stock, not reaching a boil, helps keep it clear so off the top of my head I'd say the ice serves to cool the stock rapidly and probably helps settle out anything making it cloudy. When the stock has reduced through simmering, more water is needed but adding ice, not water drops the temp so the stock isn't in the danger zone. The long three day cooking is what helps provide the dark color. Without reading the original recipe, I'd guess the frozen veggies are frozen only because they have been saved in  the freezer and adding them frozen is another way to keep the stock from the boiling point. 

Does the original recipe provide any further information? 

There is no further information on the recipe... the frozen veges only have the same purpose as the ice and add flavour to the stock...and after cheflayers ansver it's obvious for helping clarifying the stock...

 

after Escoffier: the dark color comes from the osmazom(meet extract) in meet... that's why it's not really necessary to roast bones and meet..or at least not too dark...which would cause a bitterness..

 

We don't even use tomato paste and I can't say we miss it... if all the steps were doing right...there is a beautiful Jus as end product...very clear ,dark ,smooth ,tasty

 

Cheers

post #11 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipflopgirl View Post

A combo of chefs layne and writer's posts.
The fat sticks to the ice (raft of sorts) as well as dropping the contents to a safe low temp before storage for the nite just skim it out before it melts as the fat will be released back into the stock.
Gone are the days of leaving a stockpot to simmer unchecked overnite so unless you wanna sit there and babysit you need a rapid cool down.
Then repeat for as many days as needed.
The frozen veg puzzle has been solved as well IMO.

mimi

The fat is already skimmed before we add ice...fat needs to skimmed quickly in most stocks as it binds to much flavor otherwise

 

we don't need to drop temps over nyt as it simmers very lightly in a consistent temperature

 

we can't simmer a stock too many days either...it's getting bitter after too long .... a perfect beef stock for us is not longer than 72 hrs simmering...sometimes a bit less ...depends on the bones/meet 

 

Cheers

post #12 of 13

       If you don't mind, could you clarify this method from start to finish? Pun intended.  I'm a bit confused. What are all the steps involved?

Do you really simmer the stock for 72 hours non stop? At what temperature is it simmering?  Are there any bones left when it is finally done?  How much ice are you adding to how much stock and precisely when?  You aren't adding the ice to help cool the stock off before you store it for the night? So how do you know when to add it?  

       It has been my understanding that removing the fat helps prevent clouding but doesn't remove flavor. Fat by itself is flavorful but isn't removing flavor from the stock. 

 

What I can add is that there is actually no such thing scientifically as osmazom. It was a word Escoffier used but not a scientifically sound one. Umami probably would have worked just as well to describe what he was talking about. 

post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 
Steps are as described.

Yes up to 72hrs 90degrees...if only cannon bones for example...
Mixed with neck bones the time frame is reduced to 48 hrs...
And yes there r bones left...but who cares??!!! As I want only my yummy stock biggrin.gif

Never in my 20years as chef we stored a stock in the fridge over night to start the boiling prozess next day again... and it just works very well to leave it on low heat and of cz fill it up when a bit reduced etc

Who says fat doesn't absorb flavor?

I don't really know then what makes the stock dark after a while..without roasting anything nor add a wine/tomato paste reduction etc...
Only had the word osmazom in my head from Escoffier...maybe you could explain to me which chemical prozess happen and cz the dark color then...would aprecciate that!

The ice is added to help clearifying and I guess also to help a bit with the dark color....
But that I can't really explain ..thats why I started the thread in the first place...to hopefully find someone who can wink.gif

Cheers
Edited by Chef37 - 6/7/16 at 4:44am
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