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Worth saving these knives? - Page 2

post #31 of 62
Thread Starter 

Guess what the roommates did today...

 

I'm just going to buy some knives (well, probably only one for now) and tell everyone that they're strictly off-limits.

 

Is a $200 budget (+50% stretch, max) for a knife + maintenance equipment going to be sufficient?  I'm still interested in fixing my mom's Wusthof, but I think I'll worry about that when I go home for Thanksgiving.

 

I'll have to think about what I want in a knife. I don't even know what handle I want since I've never seen/felt a wa handle before.  I don't know if I want stainless or carbon steel.

 

Probably the only thing do I know is that the 205mm knife I have seems to be a good length, and only occasionally do I wish I had something longer.  210-240mm should be plenty long for me.

 

I'm mainly going to be cutting potatoes, carrots, garlic, onion, broccoli, beef (boneless)..  I cut semi-frozen chicken breast often, but I can relegate that to my other knives..

 

Sharpness is probably less important that newb-proofing for now, since I have accidentally scrubbed the blade across the cutting board a few times too many (it makes a really angry sound when I do that).

 

Fujiwara FKH + a couple stones?

post #32 of 62

Photos are deceiving, actually that knife was probably up to Victorinox standards (and smaller than I thought) when new, it would make a "relatively" easy fixerupper and nice little utility/beater.  A dremel with a cut-off wheel would do to thin the edge quickly.  Make sure the direction of spin will take you away from the edge.  Then I would have you "carefully" try your hand at thinning the the tip area on the grinder, the last 2-3 inches depending on your ambition.  One cavete to Benusers specs, 0.2mm might be just a hair thin for the temper on this knife, try 0.3 first if you go there.

 

The Masahiro Foddy recommended and some King stones would have you well under budget.  It's a good place to start.

post #33 of 62
So what, exactly, did the roommates do today?????

I'll let the others advise you on how to spend your money but will suggest one thing: protect your knive with more than threats. Keep them out of sight and out of mind. I have a couple of knives I prefer the family not use so I keep them in knife guards, a knife tote and put away until I take them out for me to use. I think my investment in guards and a cheap tote was about $25, but the value is priceless.
post #34 of 62
(if still in budget) Might also be worth getting something that looks a little different than everything else used in yall's kitchen space to help ensure differentiation/lack of confusion
post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmily View Post
 

Sharpness is probably less important that newb-proofing for now, since I have accidentally scrubbed the blade across the cutting board a few times too many (it makes a really angry sound when I do that).

 

Fujiwara FKH + a couple stones?

Yeah. Or you can go Tojiro, based on preference or where you find the prices are between the two. I think the Tojiro is going to run a little thicker than the Fujiwara, but it's still an enjoyable knife to use (and significantly better with a tiny bit of thinning). 

 

Scrubbing? Like using the blade to scrape food across the board? Don't do that :3 not good for the stability and alignment of the edges.

 

Since it seems like you've still got candidates for fixing up, I think it's worth the step up in stones. I think the Beston/Bester would either cut faster/be more dish resistant than the King. Make sure you've got a flattening solution too.

post #36 of 62
Thread Starter 

Hi guys,

 

Sorry I've been gone so long.  Midterms, papers, club duties.. busy week!

 

Roomies used a few of my knives to break into their room after they locked themselves out.  I thought the Germain chef knife was ruined, but that's the one knife they didn't bend up.  Still, I kinda want to get that Fujiwara FKH.  I think I'd prefer it over the Tojiro DP because I want to try to get used to carbon steel.  I hope the FKH isn't unbearably stinky like a few posters have made them out to be.

 

Right now, the shopping list is..

CKTG

$46 Beston 500x
$35 Suehiro Stone Holder  
$82 Fujiwara Carbon Gyuto 240mm  (FKH)

($163 total)

 

JKI

$45 Gesshin 220

$65 Diamond flattening plate

($110 total)

 

toolsfromjapan.com (big savings here - thanks for the tip!)

¥5800 Suehiro Cerax 1000 + Rika 5000 combo -> There's a checkbox to get individual stones at the same price - any reason not to?

¥2080 shipping

(¥7880 / $77 total)

 

Grand total: $350 (+ tax?)

 

$50 over my stretch budget, but I did just come up on $300...  With an investment this size I hope I don't end up hating sharpening, lol...

 

Videos like this make me feel like I'm not worthy of high end equipment, but I'm watching as many knife skills / sharpening / Japanese knife videos as I can...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRpNotnaDmk

 

(I did see him poke his hand - looks like the glove saved his skin)

post #37 of 62
Thread Starter 

Well, my big reply is in moderation for containing a youtube link, but I forgot to answer this question

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foody518 View Post
 

Scrubbing? Like using the blade to scrape food across the board? Don't do that :3 not good for the stability and alignment of the edges.

 

Sort of.  I don't do it to scrape the food away, but sometimes after a cut I think I twist the knife as if I'm using the edge to gauge out the cutting board.  It's not an intentional action - by brain makes my hand do it on its own, like bad muscle memory or something.  Maybe it's because I have to use so much force to cut everything.  But it definitely feels like an action that would roll the whole edge over.

 

I'm about to go make dinner, so I'll try to pay attention and see if I do it again.

post #38 of 62

You're close, it is a form of bad memory retention.  Like many competitive athletes will tell you, the body does whatever the predominant image in mind suggests it should to.  Start seeing what you really want the knife to do, instead of what it always has done, and it will come to pass.

post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmily View Post

Sort of.  I don't do it to scrape the food away, but sometimes after a cut I think I twist the knife as if I'm using the edge to gauge out the cutting board.  It's not an intentional action - by brain makes my hand do it on its own, like bad muscle memory or something.  Maybe it's because I have to use so much force to cut everything.  But it definitely feels like an action that would roll the whole edge over.

I'm about to go make dinner, so I'll try to pay attention and see if I do it again.

A good way to gain control over your hand, rather than having your brain autonomously control it, is to slow down. Sometimes slowing WAY down helps. You can build speed with your new form later.
post #40 of 62

"Videos like this make me feel like I'm not worthy of high end equipment, but I'm watching as many knife skills / sharpening / Japanese knife videos as I can...

 

 

That's Rick going half speed actually, check this one:

There's another one in the series where he does a neater job, a real consistant dice, just as fast.

 

He is a master of the Mental Image.  Eh, there's a little more to it, like paying attention to and eliminating unwanted tension where you find it, proper grip, etc.  You have the greats to emulate right there on youtube and it will come in a matter of course if you want it.

post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmily View Post
 

Hi guys,

 

Sorry I've been gone so long.  Midterms, papers, club duties.. busy week!

 

Roomies used a few of my knives to break into their room after they locked themselves out.  I thought the Germain chef knife was ruined, but that's the one knife they didn't bend up.  Still, I kinda want to get that Fujiwara FKH.  I think I'd prefer it over the Tojiro DP because I want to try to get used to carbon steel.  I hope the FKH isn't unbearably stinky like a few posters have made them out to be.

 

Right now, the shopping list is..

CKTG

$46 Beston 500x
$35 Suehiro Stone Holder  
$82 Fujiwara Carbon Gyuto 240mm  (FKH)

($163 total)

 

JKI

$45 Gesshin 220

$65 Diamond flattening plate

($110 total)

 

toolsfromjapan.com (big savings here - thanks for the tip!)

¥5800 Suehiro Cerax 1000 + Rika 5000 combo -> There's a checkbox to get individual stones at the same price - any reason not to?

¥2080 shipping

(¥7880 / $77 total)

 

Grand total: $350 (+ tax?)

 

$50 over my stretch budget, but I did just come up on $300...  With an investment this size I hope I don't end up hating sharpening, lol...

 

Go for the 2 individual stones for ~the same price. 

 

Try and get a hold of something that you can work on without having to drop to the 220 grit stone first starting out (so you don't hate sharpening right up front). The noise and feedback from 220 grits are by and large unpleasant and I don't know if there's much of a way of getting around that. The feel of even the Beston 500x is lightyears better than the 220 grit stone :)

post #42 of 62
Thread Starter 

Cutting things for dinner went a lot better this time.  I think just actively thinking and being aware of the issue is already helping.

 

I placed my orders from CKTG and toolsfromjapan tonight!  Though I guess I may not be able to start sharpening for quite some time.  JKI ran out of diamond flattening plates, so that order will have to wait.  It sounds like toolsfromjapan orders can take many weeks to arrive as well.  So all I'm going to be receiving any time soon is the Fujiwara and the 500x + holder - looks like 4-5 days from WI to CA.

 

Hopefully I don't need the other stones right away. Even straight out of the box I'm sure the Fujiwara will be way sharper than my LC Germain.  It takes a dangerous amount of force just to cut through onions with that thing.

 

I'm really excited for all this stuff to arrive so I can try it out!  I'm especially curious to feel the difference between stones since you all keep talking about how different they are.  Thank you guys for all the help!  I'll be sure to keep you updated on everything.

 

And huge thanks to my mom for picking up the tab for my birthday!  I am one lucky boy.

 

Now I guess I can start thinking about patinas.  I'm really not a fan of all the forced patinas I see around here, but it sounds like this knife might need it due to its highly reactive, low purity (smelly sulfur) SK4 steel.  I think I have an idea of what I want to do!

post #43 of 62

Congrats and happy birthday!
Shouldn't need to go down to the 500 grit for Fujiwara anytime soon. And sounds like experiencing a thinner ground knife is exactly what you need based on your comment about cutting through onions

post #44 of 62
Thread Starter 

Thanks!

 

The knife and first stone arrived today.  CKTG packed everything nicely.  I just read a post about a Shigefusa (rare/amazing knife?) arriving from Japan with a broken off tip, but I had no issues at all with my shipment from CKTG.

 

Not pictured is the anti-corrosion paper that the blade was wrapped in.  I'm planning on keeping the knife wrapped in that paper and stored in its box in my room.

 

Pretty kanji.  Strange diagonal line going across the side of the knife that won't wipe off.  It's not a reflection - it's like the metal is a different shade of silver.  Even the kanji is a lighter shade of black there.

 

Handle feels fine.  It's a bit lopsided at the end here.  Don't know if that's on purpose.  Can't tell the difference anyway.

 

Very sharp choil - it even has some small burrs from when they finished the sides of the blade.  Spine isn't so bad.  I'll round them both down eventually.

 

Have some pot roast going in the oven right now.  Will let you know how it goes.  It's my first time using a really sharp knife, so I'll try to go slowly and carefully.

post #45 of 62

Congratulations, and I appreciate you wanting to keep the knife safe but you really don't need to keep it wrapped in that paper.

 

The minor FF issues you pointed out are typical for a knife in that price range.  The bolster and rivets look nice and flush though.

 

I don't think the Fujiwara comes screaming sharp out of the box, let us know how she cuts anyways.  Then when the rest of your stones come in give her an edge (maybe even try thinning it a bit) and then let us know how you did.

post #46 of 62
The ones I've seen came with an edge you shouldn't work with. Just made to ease sharpening by the end user or retailer. And put a patina on it prior to the first sharpening.
post #47 of 62

In which case, in my limited experience, my favorite patina inducer is mango, followed by the oil of lemon peel, doing some fine slicing of both, in which case you might want to sharpen first. ;-)~

post #48 of 62
No need for sharpening! The factory edge is crazy sharp but weak, won't hold.
post #49 of 62
Thread Starter 

Some other posts made it seem like my onions were going to turn into a pile of black goop and my whole apartment building was going to smell of sulfur.  I had no problems with this knife whatsoever, but I can see it being a problem if you took this knife out of the box and had to cut 100 onions at work.

 

First thing I cut was carrots.  They left a beautiful deep purple color on the knife.  Wish I had taken photos.  Another post somewhere called it "grape juice purple" and I think that description works pretty well here.

 

After that I cut onions.  I let one slice sit on the knife for a little while, and it left a few grayish rings, but it wasn't that bad.

 

Last thing I cut was my roast.  I saw it leaving some nice color on the knife, so I rubbed a slice of meat all over to help kick start the patina.

 

 

Onion rings still after meat slicing:

 

Dots are not as pretty as the sunset splotches, but it certainly doesn't feel like pitting:

 

----------------

 

This is definitely the sharpest knife I've never used in my life.  There's probably more wrong with my technique than the knife.  That said, this definitely doesn't seem as sharp as some videos I've seen.  Here are my first attempts at slicing paper.  It was definitely not easy to get a cut started, but still, I don't own anything else that can do this.

 

 

 

I will pick up some mango and lemon to play with.  Maybe I should video that.

 

Some day I want to try a dark black coffee finish, then thin the edge and do a natural patina on the kireha / blade road (if I'm getting my terms right).  I think the two tone might look nice.  I haven't seen any deep black patinas like this on kitchen knives:

 

source: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1196022-Coffee-forced-patina

post #50 of 62
Thread Starter 

Oops, my post went to moderators again for having links and stuff.  I'm sure it'll be approved soon.

 

But yeah, I'm really happy with the handle feel.  The rivets are almost perfectly flush - I can barely feel them.  The left piece of the handle comes down ever so slightly past the tang, and I can kinda get my nail between the right piece and the tang, but it's really nothing I'm worried about at all, especially at this price.  If I had paid $250+, I would definitely expect the handle to be completely smooth, but I definitely can't complain when I didn't even pay 1/3 that.

 

Anyway, I soaked the Beston 500 and tried my hand at sharpening the LC Germain, not with the goal of making the knife sharp but just to see what sharpening feels like.  The stone soaked for two hours (no more bubbles after 45 minutes) but it felt like it dried pretty quickly.  I should have some liquid mud sloshing around the top of the stone at all times, right?  I feel like I had to drip water on the stone pretty frequently, and it seemed like I never had much slurry/swarf buildup, though I could see the dark color telling me things were happening.

 

I tried the sharpie trick, and it seemed like I was doing very well sharpening the existing edge without running past the edge of the.. edge (the shinogi line?).

 

I built up a burr a couple times on each side, then went for stropping motions on the stone.  Not enough sharpening to make the knife sharp, but that wasn't the point.  All the massive chips and the misshapen profile is still there, but overall the edge still got a million times sharper.  Nowhere close to the Fujiwara though.

 

My professional chef roommate offered to show me the "best" way to sharpen using his own knife.  He looked like he was using the stone as a stationary honing steel and sliced a few chunks off the edges of the stone.  His knife wouldn't even cut through paper towel after that, but he seemed very pleased that he was able to scratch through the first ply after a couple tries.  His technique built up a lot of nice looking mud, though.  Maybe I get too close to the edge and push all of mine off.

 

A couple hours after using the stone, it is FREEZING cold.  Pretty neat!  I heard they make ice in India through evaporative cooling like this.

 

I'm keeping the stone on my desk with only two corners resting on the stone holder so that it can get airflow on all sides and dry out before I put it back in the box. Curious to see if it develops frost by tomorrow morning, lol.

 

--------

 

If I don't need to keep the knife wrapped up in that paper then I'll tuck it away somewhere, I guess.  Maybe I'm just being too anal since it's my first time having something like this.  I'm the kind of guy who parks in a far off corner of an empty parking lot just to avoid door dings.

 

post #51 of 62
Foto0092.jpg
This is what a carbon knife looks like -- the left one, after a bit of use. Better get used to it.
post #52 of 62
Thread Starter 
I can dig it! I'm sure I'll get over the babying phase soon enough. Then I'll start lusting after insanely expensive knives, more sharpening toys, a wood cutting board..
post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmily View Post

I can dig it! I'm sure I'll get over the babying phase soon enough. Then I'll start lusting after insanely expensive knives, more sharpening toys, a wood cutting board..

Welcome to the rabbit hole haha

I really wouldn't worry too much about the paper testing especially that free standing stuff with an OOTB edge. IMO those can depend a fair bit on exactly how you fold the paper. Recently been trending more towards using Murray Carter's three finger test for analyzing edge quality and burr removal with only paper/paper towel cutting (held between 2 fingers) just to verify that there are not catches (burr, other inconsistencies) in the draw.

Good start on your patina!

The LC Germain could honestly need loads of repair and thinning to be able to get close to matching your Fujiwara.

I use my Beston & Bester fairly wet which to me means even permasoaked, dripping a few more drops of water periodically during sharpening. Hard to explain mud/slurry consistency and there's probably a range of preferences on that, but you'll hear the difference when the stone really dries out. It gets scratchy(-er) and kind of higher pitched when abrading.

I make cardboard sheaths for the knives not purchased with a saya using Amazon shipping box style cardboard and clear packaging tape. Keeps the knives more accessible than reaching into multiple boxes :3

post #54 of 62

Your knife has a good edge on it, no doubt about that.  For me the real test of a keen edge is slicing onion less than 1mm, and if you can get a good section of 0.5mm then you know how to sharpen.  Admittedly this keen an edge won't hold up on the board, but it does have its uses.

 

I like your patina just fine.  Mango gives a gun-metal blue, lemon oil leaves a burnished kind of sheen to a patina, but doesn't create much patina on its own.

post #55 of 62

on stones and repairing edges.   for quick removal of chips and nicks, I use a Norton Crystolon coarse/fine 8" to remove the chip and restore/refine the bevel, then a Norton India coarse/fine 8" to restore the edge.  for most kitchen chores, the edge from the India fine is great.  will push cut newprint and shave arm hair without pulling.  If I want a finer edge, I use a JewelStik 1200 grit diamond bench hone.

scott

post #56 of 62
Thread Starter 

Hey guys,

 

My Suehiro 1000/5000 stones came in from toolsfromjapan!  They were extremely well packed, with each stone individually boxed and wrapped in many many layers of bubble wrap, and those bundles surrounded by pillowy soft packing peanuts the likes of which I have never seen before.  Yeah, even Japanese packing peanuts are superior.

 

I'm practicing sharpening on my LC Germain right now.  My technique seems to be improving, based on the fact that my latest pass with just the 500 feels sharper than my previous go through all three (500->1000->5000) stones.

 

This time around, I'm sharpening at a more acute angle.  That really seems to be making a difference.

 

How sharp should my knife be after just the 500?  I can get a few inches through a piece of paper in one stroke.  Definitely not performing like the Fujiwara yet... But we'll see how it goes after the 5000

 

edit- Maybe a better question is this- Should I be able to get a sharper edge on this Germain than the factory edge on the Fujiwara?  I just finished with the 5000 again, and while the knife feels amazing compared to where it started, it's still not at the Fujiwara level.  I know I wobble a bit and I have a slightly convex edge as a result.  I'm also not through the worst of the edge damage yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

^---- Interesting ghosting on the side of the blade from the 5000 grit stone.  I love that stone - the slurry is so soft and creamy.


Edited by GuySmily - 10/29/16 at 11:56pm
post #57 of 62

Yay! Glad your stones from TFJ came in safely. They feel nice to sharpen on, don't they... :)

Hard to say without having personally seen how your Fujiwara came, but probably? Your Fujiwara can be made to perform better than how it came to you as well. The LC Germain could probably use some more thinning which is one thing that can help with those kinds of tests. Though how long it holds an edge is maybe up in the air. You'll keep improving on your technique and consistency - bevel looks like you've got the gist of it though the back is less even. 

post #58 of 62

glad your stones arrived in one piece.  how sharp can you get?  try cutting newsprint then a paper napkin.  with a good edge, you should be able to do a 90 degree push cut on newsprint.  cut a hole in the paper napkin and insert blade.  you should be able to cleanly cut to the edge.  also remember that geometry cuts, no how fine you have polished your edge.  here is a good reference on sharpening https://archive.org/details/Experiments_on_Knife_Sharpening_John_Verhoeven  if you can do some measurements.  your edge should be 0.005" or less.  1/4" above the edge 0.015" to 0.02", 1/2" above the edge 0.03".  if your blade is much thicker than this, you may have to put your new stones back in the box and break out a Norton Crystolon coarse/fine and remove some steel.  Also decide what you want the knife to do.  the edge I gave measurements for will slice meat and veg like a laser, but might be a little fragile for heavy chopping or boning.

the old sailor

post #59 of 62

Wowah, the steel on a Fujiwara FKM is too soft to I think to tolerate a .005 edge", at this level of thin it would likely take a bend-set cutting through something no tougher that a turkey leg tendon.  .010", maybe even .008", would be good to keep this knife at.

post #60 of 62

wow a lot of sugestions and now for my 10 cents. I just emptied 3 houses my fathers main house my fathers apartment and my grand mothers place. I found tons of knives and gave away some saved a lot. just went to a knife show and a sharpener did the work way under your stone buying budget. he even helped with the handles. I was going to throw away some but a lady from church said that some people do not have any and would benefit from the knife regardless of the condition??

anyway in my fathers house found 3 sharpening machines from a well known store brand, a creftman grinder, 3-4 stones, carbide device plus leather strop.

amazing how these old knives cut it is like they are grateful for a new life

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