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Help a perfectionist choose the right knife for the kitchen

33K views 88 replies 15 participants last post by  lennyd 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I know the forum probably gets a lot of these, but I have done a lot of reading and still could use a bit of help so here goes. I would describe myself as a cooking hobbyist who enjoys a scientific approach (I've learned how to cook through Good Eats, Serious Eats and ATK), especially when choosing new equipment. I'm realizing that knives are much more complicated and could use some advice from some who know the market. I am wedding registering for my first quality knives and have done about as much research and handling as I can manage. I had decided on a Shun Classic chef knife, which I know is generally regarded as overpriced and overmarketed and, to be honest, I probably wouldn't buy for myself under normal circumstances. However, I was able to handle it due to the wide availability and really liked the ergonomics when using a pinch grip, especially compared to the mostly german alternatives that were also available (I'm mostly limited to big-box stores). I also might make use of the free sharpening and it certainly looks pretty on the rack. My main concern and one that I've read from experts is the big-bellied profile and I wasn't able to do any board work with it. If someone spends this much on a knife I certainly don't want to end up with accordion cuts. I saw that Shun does make an "Asian Chef knife" which has a more triangular, flat-heeled shape, but it's only 7 inches which I'm not sure about either.

I've seen a lot of recommendations for Tojiro, Mac and Misono, all of which I could register for on Amazon, but I really preferred the D-handle when comparing in the stores and I also prefer it aesthetically. I was able to handle a Wusthoff Ikon and Miyabi Kaizen which are probably comparable to the Shun and didn't like the feel quite as much. I also feel like the Ikon is just as, if not more over-priced and I'd be concerned about chipping the Miyabi.

Basically the perfect knife for me would be D-handle, comfortable/forged collar, lack of full bolster French/Sabatier profile, at least 8 inches, quality Japanese steel, available via Amazon.

I'm also interested in a nakiri, but am probably not as concerned with the handle ergonomics on that one. I handled a Calphalon Katana in store and actually liked the unique feel, but it is much heavier than a Nakiri is probably supposed to be and I could likely get a decent budget Japanese one for the same price rather than one made by a cookware company. I'm considering these:
[product="27702"]Mac Knife Japanese Series Vegetable Cleaver 6 1 2 Inch [/product][product="27703"]Tojiro Black Finished Shiro Ko Kasumi Nakiri 6 4 16 5cm [/product]
I appreciate the time!
 
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#6 · (Edited by Moderator)
Here you go:
[product="27705"]Yoshihiro Powdered Daisu Steel Stainless Gyuto Japanese Chefs Knife 9 5 Inch [/product]
Though powdered steel like SG2, this steel is tougher and is even used in boning knives. Yoshihiro is known for nice thin grinds, and even though I've never owned one I've never heard bad about them and would recommend over Shun any day.

But unless you will be sharpening by hand then I'd recommend nothing but cheap knives as I don't think you will notice a significant difference using a pull-thru or power sharpener, and with the latter especially they will wear out too fast.
 
#7 ·
As Foody518 mentioned, you haven't mentioned a budget or knife maintenance. For that matter, you haven't mentioned what kind of cutting surface you will be using as well.

Frankly put, sharpening gear is as important as the knife itself. Without maintaining the edge, what you will invariably end up with is a dull knife. And sending it off to be sharpened by some Neanderthal with a screaming grinding wheel is often the quickest way to destroy the metalurgical quality of the steel immediately at the edge.

You are also going to need a good quality cutting board, preferably at least 12” x 18” (300mm x 450mm). End grain hard northern maple is the usual standard against which other cutting boards are compared. Get something cheaper and either it will dull the edge very quickly (such as glass) or develop grooves which trap food waste and often can lead to subsequent food poisoning (such as plastic, nylon or poly boards).

You also haven't mentioned how you are gripping your knife. Are you using a full fisted clamping of the handle (such as seen when gripping a baseball bat or a tennis racquet)? Or, are you using a pinch grip? Racquet gripping results in the hand being sensitive to the shape of the handle. Personally I find pinch gripping makes the profile of the handle almost irrelevant.

Rick brought up using a powdered metalurgy core knife. Wonderful steel for blades – that is, if you can properly maintain the edge. But, while they can be thinned behind the edge to present a very thin profile, the immediate edge needs a microbevel of at least 16 degrees to prevent chipping. Whether the “professional” sharpener with the power tool mania can deliver such a precise angle is so iffy that I would hide the blade before letting such a “professional” anywhere near it.

Your first post shows two nakiri blades. These are knives used in Japanese households where almost the only food being cut up is vegetables. Very good for their purpose – but not a knife for all-around European or American style cooking.

That all-around knife would probably be the gyuto, which is the Japanese adaptation of the French Sabatier profile chef's knife. There's just a small amount of curvature and the point is also usable A length of 210 mm (8-1/4 inch) is probably the minimum length, but a 240 mm (9-3/8 inch) length is more practical.

I agree with you about not wanting a bolster down the length of the back of the blade. As for a bolster on the tang behind the blade, I find with the pinch grip that it's irrelevant.

On the steel used in the blade, I would probably stay away from VG-10. It can be brought to an extremely sharp edge by proper hand sharpening on waterstones. The problem is that any bead you raise during sharpening needs to be properly abraded down, rather than just snapped off.

I would suggest that your first knife should be a knife you try out and get used to in not just cutting, but also in sharpening. My recommendation would be for a MAC HB-85, which is part of the Chef Series, MAC's basic commercial line. It's a light and thin blade (4-1/2 oz and 2mm thick). It uses the same steel as most of the MAC “Pro” Series gyuto's. True, it doesn't have a metal bolster in front of the handle scales, but that can allow you to more easily custom shape the front of the handle scales to make the scales more individually comfortable for a pinch grip. And, at $70 on discount (from some eBay retailer, or from ChefKnivesToGo), you will also have money for sharpening gear.

If you want something bigger, then a MAC BK-100 should easily do the job. The BK-100 is the same thickness (2.5mm) as the MAC Pro-Series MBK-95 gyuto, the same stiffness (I have quite a few MAC's, including all of the knives I mention here), slightly longer than the MBK-95 (255mm vs 225mm) and at $110 on discount, $75 less expensive than the MBK-95 (which on discount is $185).

MAC's are about hRc 60 in hardness. An Idahone honing rod (get the 12 inch model - $30 – you won't regret the extra length) is excellent for those quick honing jobs for edge alignment between sharpening sessions.

For a first sharpening stone, get a waterstone of about 800 to 1200 grit, with a minimum surface area of 200mm (8 inches) x 50mm (2 inches). And that's a MINIMUM!! Extra length or width is always better. And NEVER use oil as your lubricant – only water.

Hope that helps

Galley Swiller
 
#8 ·
I would say max budget is 150 but preferably less, especially if I'm also asking for a Nakiri. I realize that I probably won't develop perfect Japanese technique but I often reached for a small Santoku from my previous knife block if I was just chopping something small and prefer the Nakiri style.

I am also getting an end grain maple board and water stones, but will be learning via YouTube. There are also a few local sharpeners that seem very reputable.

Galley Swiller are you saying avoid vg10 until I have more practice sharpening and choose something of lesser hardness?

I do use a pinch grip and found the shun very comfortable, but your right, the blade sharpness is certainly more important.

I will definitely look at the Mac. Thanks
 
#9 ·
As I posted above, VG-10 is a good steel when properly sharpened. But if you have not yet developed sharpening skills, then my recommendation is to avoid it for a first Japanese knife.

I am recommending the MAC HB-85 because it's a basic Japanese gyuto which is low enough priced so that you won't freak out as much about damaging something expensive when you are getting used to practicing sharpening. If you are wanting to perfect your kitchen, then developing skills (especially sharpening skills) is much more critical than gear.

As for local sharpeners, the one question I would ask is how do they sharpen? Are they using motorized grinders or are they doing it entirely by hand? If they are using motors, then walk away and don't let them even see your knives. It's as simple as that.

About the best knife sharpening videos that I am aware of are done by Jon Broida of Japanese Knife Imports. The entry YouTube site is: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

If you want a written description on how to sharpen, then Chad Ward's posting here is very good: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

Before you go for a nakiri, I would suggest that you first use a gyuto for awhile as your go-to blade. The blade profile for a nakiri is just plain flat. Even a santoku uses a tiny bit more curvature. A gyuto does have more curvature than a santoku, but it's less curvature than the Sabatier profile and is nowhere as curved as a German patterned chef's knife, which has belly, belly and MORE belly. FWIW, I almost never use a nakiri (though I have a few).

You will find that an 8-1/4 inch blade length (210mm) gyuto is just a tad longer than a regular santoku (which is 180mm, or about 7 inches long). It also has a practical tip, which is problematic with santokus and non-existent with nakiris.

Hope that helps

Galley Swiller
 
#10 ·
I did some browsing on chefknivestogo and cross-referenced with Amazon to see what was available and feel that these may be appropriate choices:

Misono Moly Gyuto


Tetsuhiro V Gold Gyuto


They seem to have very similar designs. Any knowledge about the how the steels compare to each other?

Also Galley Sweller thank you very much for the information. I understand what you're saying about not worrying about ruining a cheaper knife. Is there any reason you recommend the Mac over something like a Tojiro DP which does have VG10, but is roughly the same price?
 
#11 ·
Re. sharpening. I think the one motorized sharpening machine that works very well for sharpening is a Tormek. If a service uses that and are competent, it's good. Most other machines might damage the knife because they heat up the steel in the process of sharpening, the Tormek does not.
 
#13 ·
While a water-cooled grinder is less likely to overheat the edge, it is still highly dependent on the familiarity and skill of the sharpener in creating a proper edge.

One major problem with any sharpening system is that visits for sharpening tend to become few and far between. When that pattern develops, the user ends up with a blade which starts out sharp or somewhat sharp immediately after being sharpened, but gets progressively duller until taken back. To really be useful, the edge should be maintained, and the user needs to develop the feel of when an edge is becoming duller.

It is much, MUCH BETTER for a user to do his or her own sharpening. That way, the knife can be kept sharp and there will be no delay or excuse for letting it get dull.

Working with stones is the time-honored and practical method for keeping cutlery sharp.

After all, a sharp edge is essential for more than just ease in cutting. A sharp edge also means the knife wielder has much better control over where the edge goes, and control is key to safety.

Get a good ceramic honing rod for between sharpenings, and several grits of stones for sharpening.

GS
 
#15 ·
Also, sharpening isn't just about grinding away metal.  It's also about smoothing the ridgeline of the edge, so that the edge presents a smooth line along the length of the edge.  This is why polishing of the edge is so important to getting a really sharp edge.

Grinders, such as the Grizzly linked by MillionsKnives, generally only come with a single grinding wheel.  In the case of the Grizzly, that's a 220 grit wheel.  Pretty good for grinding away excess metal.  But not good for polishing the edge.  With something that coarse, you're going to get an extremely toothy edge.  And the bigger teeth will have much more pressure put on them (greater surface area per tooth per cutting point) and then have a tendency to get knocked out much quicker than a smoothed edge.  The result is faster dulling.

That's why stones (which can come in grits as fine as 10,000 or more) are essential for really good edges.

GS
 
#16 · (Edited)
The knife I recommend the most, and I would keep, if I could only keep one of my knives, would be the Masamoto 240mm chefs knife. I'm a little ODC about taking care of my knives, so I would go with the carbon steel version. For the less finicky, the stainless would be a good choice.
Many, on this site, have had good experiences with Chef Knives To Go. It's a good place to buy a Masamoto..

The Tojoro was a poor choice for me. As with others on this site, I experienced a lot of chipping on the edge.
 
#17 ·
I agree with the above gentlemen, it really depends on your budget and purpose of use. While I can't give an opinion about western type knives, I know a lot about Japanese ones. Within them, you can get a decent kitchen knife within the range of $150-$200. Myself and my partners Anna and Kuba-San specialise in Japanese style knives (for obvious reasons) and our clients who are professional chefs tend to choose R2/SG2 steel knives, Sakai Takayuki and Yu Kurosaki are their favourite blacksmiths.

or
We've made a guide to choosing the steel. There is really no "better" steel over another one. Each has a different composition and it's really a trade-off between lasting sharpness vs. difficulty in maintenance. Just because a blade is made from the premium or high-end steels listed above does not automatically mean it's "better" than the lesser steels. The heat treatment techniques used by the blademaker as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance. That's what Japanese craftsmen excel in.

Also, once you get your knife, you need not to forget that it is equally important to take care of your knife properly (not putting the knife in a dishwasher is I hope an obvious advice!).

Let me know if you need any help in choosing.

Best,
 
#18 ·
One of the things that originally attracted me to Shun was the Wa handle felt less obtrusive in a pinch grip and more attractive in my eyes, but I'm having a difficult time finding reputable Wa-handled stainless Gyutos under $150 on Amazon. It's certainly not a deal-breaker, but I was wondering if anyone has any in mind.

I also just noticed that the Shun Classic Kiritsuke is going on sale at most retailers. Traditional Kiritsuke have more of a slicer profile, but this one actually looks to have a better french profile than the Shun chef knife and 40 dollars less to boot. Only problems are that I've read that the tip can chip if dropped or jammed into a cutting board and that VG10 can be difficult to sharpen.

I also may consider getting a cheap Tojiro DP and Tojiro Shirogami. I can practice sharpening on the Shirogami until the DP edge wears out and then hopefully be able to manage that one when the time comes. And if I stain the Shirogami I can go back to the DP as my primary.
 
#19 · (Edited)
A shame that you have the retailer/vendor stipulations. This would be a quality practice knife for carbon care and sharpening https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s/zakuri-165mm-blue-1-kurouchi-tosagata-bocho

The tip fragility on kiritsuke style knives is just going to be a given on thinner knives with such a low tip

I don't think VG10 is an insurmountable hurdle to manage for beginner sharpening (you should try to have at least a medium and a fine stone though, to work off the burr). Provided you're okay with practicing also on another knife - either an old knife or something like that. VG10 was the first good steel I sharpened, and only crap stainless before that, and it went fine. I'm sure a better sharpener does way better with it, but a beginner can still fix edge wear and get from a dull knife to a sharper knife. Dunno the variability on this, but my Tojiro DP actually came with a pretty workable primary bevel to model off of when I got the guts to sharpen the thing
 
#20 · (Edited)
Though it's been a while since I have posted anything here I saw your post here Kevin, and thought I may be able to help save you some possible pain in making a decision.

First let me say all the knives mentioned already will cut as needed, and even the worst and best value can do the job so you need to remove all your existing thoughts about knives and ask yourself some questions about your real needs, abilities, and just be honest and you will find your way.

From what you have said earlier I can not emphasize strongly enough the need to forget about what finishes, looks, and styles you think you prefer (you will likely be stunned by these thoughts later after your have spent some time learning and using etc.) And though you may have a desire to work a registry it would benefit you greatly to eliminate this as you are seriously limiting yourself with big box store or that mega online retailer, and in the end you will come up short because of it.

I strongly recommend reading the beginner thread in my signature as it outlines how to pick out what is important, and how to adjust your short list to match real needs rather than marketing BS and fluff that seems to be confusing you.

Also trust in the opinions and suggestions of the senior members here as they are truly helping you avoid a mistake, and though you may not get it just yet there are real reasons they are pushing back on your specific requests, and this is based on years of experience so help yourself and listen to the reasoning etc.

As an example I agree that a Nakiri would not be a good choice for a first Japanese knife, and like many I do have one that I seldom use as it is just not as effective or as good a choice for most jobs that would be better served by a gyuto or petty etc.

If you look around here you will find plenty of info addressing that the three main knives for 95% of jobs are a gyuto, petty, and bread knife, and I would strongly suggest that your first be one of these and specifically recommend a 240-270mm gyuto that is easy to maintain, has a good profile and blade, and fits your budget.

And seriously forget about the different finishes for now as they don't do anything for performance, and try to leave beauty or looks for helping with making a decision from your short list. Otherwise your working it backwards, and may find you got the wrong knife.

Please include the following in your next post, how long using pinch grip, what are your expectations and experience with sharpening on water stones, what is your level of willingness to learn or improve sharpening skills, do you prefer to get two knives that fit existing budget over investing budget to get an improved or better quality single one,

Remember we have all felt your pain at one time, and know it is difficult to pull the trigger on a large purchase of something you have never held or even seen in person, and much as we all got to where we are via different routes we are mostly all happy with the trip and I know I'm not the only one who was stressed because the methods of learning and comparing what to buy could not be accountable in any normal way.

Just clear your thoughts to remove all the crap from marketing, and follow these guys like some sort of Zen etc. And got will find your way.
 
#22 ·
Thank you again for all of the responses.

I've done a lot more research and think I have a clearer picture of what's out there, but still having trouble deciding due to all of the differences of opinion. Hopefully I can be more specific in my questions now.

I'm definitely nixing the Shun due to profile and had been thinking Tojiro DP due to the consistent recommendations, great price on Amazon and honestly it's probably what I would buy for myself as I'm pretty value conscious and may not have the skills to need anything more. On the other hand I do want something that I can care for and enjoy for a long time and I am concerned that some refer to it as a project knife that may or may not be comfortable and is difficult to sharpen. I do have large hands so the "boxy" handle may not be a big deal.

The most consistent "step up" recommendations I've seen are Mac pro, various Masamoto and Misono, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff and Suisin Inox. The latter two are the only ones that are really in my price range as I'd like to stay at or below the Shun/Wusthof classic price point as that's what people would be expecting on a registry. It seems that the Grand Cheff may be a better option from my reading with better steel and I've also read that it is easy to sharpen for stainless. It is also priced really well on amazon at $120. My only concerns are whether it's worth 2x the price of the Tojiro and that it's pretty industrial looking.

One big box type that I am still considering is the Miyabi Fusion which I could get for $80 with coupon and seems to have a pretty good profile. My main concern about that one is that the americanized Japanese knives like Miyabi and Shun seem to be unnecessarily thick and heavy considering the steel used. Not compared to a german, but I was actually able to handle some Kikuichi knives at a local store and found them amazingly light compared to these two. Honestly I think I would prefer something more in-between these in terms of weight which I would think most of the "step up" group above would fall into. I'm also debating 210 vs 240 and the deal on the Fusion is only for the 8 inch.

Others that I saw on Amazon that I could find a little about are Masahiro MV and Togiharu Inox. And finally lower-end models from known makers include Misono Moly and Tetsuhiro V Gold 10. Any experience with these, especially compared to the Tojiro?

Finally, to answer Lenny's questions (and some others)

- I have been using a pinch grip for years (with crappy knives)

- I would like to learn stone sharpening and I'm starting to realize that something that is easier to sharpen, but still takes a great edge should probably be more of a priority than really long edge retention, because I'm not going to be processing huge volumes

- The budget is only for the Gyuto. I'm just looking at cheaper Nakiri's to play around with (...ha, that sounds dangerous...)

- I definitely want to stick with stainless, maybe stainless clad

- I primarily drop and glide, but may experiment (slowly and safely) with up/down chopping

- I'm now actually leaning more towards a Yo handle and really liked the slim Yo on the Kikuichis that I tried so even though I have large hands hearing "blocky" is kind of off-putting (I am still interested in a Wa Nakiri)

- Probably a long 210 or short 240

- I found a Michigan Maple 15x15 end-grain board that is very well priced, but am wondering if I should look for something bigger after seeing more boards in stores, especially if I get a 240. It just seems like the bigger end-grains would be really heavy

- I'm not sure that a powdered steel like the one above is best/necessary for me, but I haven't found much about whether it is easier/more difficult to sharpen than VG10. Any knowledge?

Basically what I'm looking for now is to get my money's worth in terms of steel and build quality while also being relatively easy to sharpen for stainless.

Thank you again for the information

BTW, here are my other choices:

F Dick 8144709 Premier Paring Knife 3-1/2" blade stainless steel

Victorinox 10-1/4-Inch Wavy Edge Bread Knife, Rosewood Handle

Wusthof Pro 10 Inch Hollow Edge Wide Slicing Knife

Winco Heavy Duty Cleaver with Wooden Handle

...I may also get this to practice sharpening and using a Nakiri: Kanetsune Nakiri 165mm "Nashiji" finished KC-438
 
#23 · (Edited)
Remember we have all felt your pain at one time, and know it is difficult to pull the trigger on a large purchase of something you have never held or even seen in person, and much as we all got to where we are via different routes we are mostly all happy with the trip and I know I'm not the only one who was stressed because the methods of learning and comparing what to buy could not be accountable in any normal way.
Ahahahaha, yes. I was pathologically indecisive after my first disastrous foray outside of handmedowns.

Masahiro is another inexpensive carbon to consider

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Masahiro-Ro...764734?hash=item1a215b0c3e:g:vKYAAOSwnHZYR2Fo

The Grand Chef is AEB-L razor steel, it will take a very sharp edge easily, much like carbon, and even though edge retention is not great it touches up very easily with a few stropping strokes on a fine stone.

The Yoshihiro PM steel should be easy enough to sharpen, there is little burr formation to deal with on these steels, but carbon and AEB-L easier still of course.

The WP chefs has the big belly profile most here don't care for, but the steel has better heat treat than the Vic so one of their slicers would be a good pick, maybe even their bread knives.

This for a cleaver http://www.ebay.com/itm/THAI-KITCHE...140128?hash=item210b37ffe0:g:-RcAAOSwmmxW4CQq
 
#25 ·
"I'm definitely nixing the Shun due to profile and had been thinking Tojiro DP due to the consistent recommendations, great price on Amazon and honestly it's probably what I would buy for myself as I'm pretty value conscious and may not have the skills to need anything more. On the other hand I do want something that I can care for and enjoy for a long time and I am concerned that some refer to it as a project knife that may or may not be comfortable and is difficult to sharpen. I do have large hands so the "boxy" handle may not be a big deal."

That's solid thinking, and so is the above about this not being your last knife, and how a Tojiro would be a good guest or house knife when your collecting accelerates ;)

If giving more clout to the value vs ease of sharpening and adding value to your learning experience with sharpening etc. I know you won't go wrong with a good molly steel, and a good VG10 and both in different knives at once are really telling of the differences everyone is discussing in sharpening and edge retention.

As I found from sharpening the Tojiro VG10 and Fujiwara Moly steels of my first two knives there is an extreme difference in how these sharpen, and no matter what one may prefer the learning of this difference and how the makers way of hardening the steel and the way they sharpen so differently was what was most valuable going forward to my next higher end purchase.

We often see multiple low cost j knives compared that are vg10 or moly steel, and though each have their differences they are mostly all good choices (remember this is the first in what may likely be multiple purchases) that will give you seriously increased performance over ordinary western knives, but more importantly allow you to have a better idea what everyone is talking about when comparing knives etc.

In my case the ability to compare the Tojiro DP to the Fujiwara FKM (and also compare my Spydrco VG10 pocket) showed me how different the steels are, but also how different the makers talent and hardening make the downer in sharpening and edge retention.

Consider the FKM sharpens the easiest, fastest, and with the 70/30 edge can get stupid sharp, and though retention isn't as long as the DP it freshens up quick and easy.

The DP is not nearly as hard to sharpen as some make it sound either, but you need to develop the skills to know what's going on, but you want those skills too as they are valuable when looking at next purchases etc as VG10 is popular with mid range as well.

And when you get on to stones it is also a good idea to keep with this way of allowing a comparison add there are as many differences there as well.
 
#26 · (Edited)
http://stores.ebay.com/227wood/ I like the rectangular form factor better for cutting boards (length > width). This guy's got pretty decent prices on the walnut sap pattern boards, especially considering the quality of what you get. The coating/finish he puts on the boards mean they need a whole lot less initial oiling (vs the MMB) to be water and stain resistant and good to use. Yes, end grain boards are heavy, and also really satisfying to cut on :)

Some other nakiri options http://stores.ebay.com/Japanese-too...21050014&_sid=119345294&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

I think you can create a public eBay wishlist, would that help with your buying options (w.r.t registry)?

My impression of the Tojiro DP vs some of the knives you mentioned as like the Suisin Western Inox is that the Tojiro is going to be somewhat thicker behind the edge. Still fine to use, but mine was more pleasant to use after just a slight thinning. Note the Suisin Western Inox has a two-toned brown & black handle, just so you're aware.

225-240mm > 210mm :D

Note that yes you can practice sharpening on the nakiri, but as it is fairly flat, sharpening the gyuto you will still have to get used to sharpening curvature and around the tip (which nakiri doesn't particularly have)
 
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