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dalstrong vg 10 shogun series

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Hello zone great information on knives but was wondering if anyone had knowledge on the dalstrong vg 10 shogun. Amazon says the knife retails at around the £220 mark but they are half price. Is this actually a £220 knife?

Would anyone have any suggestions of better knives for slicing and lighter kitchen work if there are better options?

Many thanks
post #2 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazrg View Post

. Is this actually a £220 knife?

It is not to me.  Standard vg-10 knife.  This seems a normal price for it.

post #3 of 28
Are you looking for a slicer or for an all purpose chefs knife?
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks for you input MK. Just to get some clarification, when you say 'it's not to me' do you mean it's not worth £220? You mentioned the price being normal for a standard vg10, normal being £220 or the sale price which is £130? Obv if it is actually worth £220 but is half price then I will go for it despite very little information in selecting.

Presuming that I would not get another knife with the dalstong credentialsin the £125 bracket such as, high carbon stainless steel genuine dsmasus layers, 62 Rockwell.

Any tips on producing arazor sharp edge as this is done using honbszuke method. What I understand of this that the factory Edgar requires fine tuning.

Again thanks for your input. Any advice would be great.
post #5 of 28

The 'damascus' pattern is only aesthetic.

If you just want a decent VG10 knife, I'd imagine Tojiro DP can be found for under 125 GPB. 
Make sure you have whetstones if you're looking at such knives

post #6 of 28

Dalstrong knives is a mass produced stamped knife made in Yangjiang China with imported VG-10 steel from Japan.   The bolster tells you nothing because that is welded on, doesn't mean it is forged.  The soft stainless damascus cladding is only on the outside and has 0 effect on performance other than being tacky looking and difficult to maintain. Every time you thin you have to polish.

 

There is no info about the grind but I would guess it is pretty thick, and the hardness on the softer side considering the market they are catering to. 

 

In light of new information, I change my vote.  IT IS OVERPRICED FOR WHAT IT IS

 

I would take the $60 Tojiro DP (also stamped but hey it is from japan and there is way more info about the grind and hardness) over this knife any day of the week.


Edited by MillionsKnives - 2/16/17 at 10:13am
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks again guys. Stopped me from buying an overpriced knife! Would a ceramic water sharper be a good substitute for whetstone if using for VG10. My budget is £120 GPB and would really like to go with Japanese knife as used German for so long. I am a chef and work with a small brigade so undertaking various jobs in kitchen, lots of coping, slicing, heavier duties side of things ...thinking I should go with an all purpose knife. Is there a Japanese knife that covers this. I have also been recommended a miyabi evolution?

Thanks
post #8 of 28

I have a few Dalstrong knives, Shogun and Phantom series (amoung many other brands).   They are essentially a lower cost Shun with better accoutrements.  I've obviously been happy with them.

 

I will point out on Amazon.com the Tojiro 9.5" DP  Damascus https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-Damascus-8-25-inch-Chefs-Knife/dp/B00H0GL7VS/ is $139.99, while the Dalstrong equivalent 9.5" is $117.99, has a G10 handle, mosaic and comes with a saya.  Edge is <15 degrees on both knives.

 

At $60 the plain 8.2" Tojiro is excellent value for a bare bones no frills knife.  If you are looking for absolute best value, this simply cannot be beat really by ANY producer.   If you are looking for something a little more exciting, with engraving, damascus pattern, G10 handle and saya, the Dalstrong presents better value at that price point compared to the Tojiro DP Damascus.   I mean it's like cars, a Toyota will get you from A to B, while a BMW will do the same, looks nicer but more expensive.

 

Note also Dalstrong has the Gladiator and Phantom Series.  I've never tried the Gladiator but I'm a fan of the geometry and handle of the Phantom Series.   

post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazrg View Post

ceramic water sharper

What kind of thing are you looking at?

post #10 of 28
Thread Starter 
Have to say now, after bistro boys comments my head is back in the pickling jar! I mean if the dalstrong shogun VG10 Damascus is better value than than tojiro DP Damascus at the same price range, confused on why the tojiro dp at $60 would be recommended over the dalstrong. There is a good offer on the tojiro senkou 8.25 inch in same bra let as dalstrong but again, so.e as review and some good (mainly to do with the handle on the tojiro. As the tojiro seems to be more of a reputable knife then no am leaning towards this...(I think!) I understand there are many variables to choosing a knife, as I am a professional chef my knives do get used across many jobs I the kitchen. Obv I won't be breaking down carcuses with my knife but lots of veg and meat prep.although the tojiro do at £60 is great value and some recommend over the dalstrong, I do have a fair bit more in my budget and would like my purchase to reflect that.
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Hey foody, the ceramic water sharpner I was looking at is the minosharp plus 3. I have always used steels to sharpen knives in kitchens, often we get companies coming into the kitchen who will take knives away to the stones. Any recommendations on ceramics for Japanese knives? Planning on getting my head around using whetstone soon though.

Cheers
post #12 of 28

Wish it was easier to find any kind of specs or more detailed pics on the Dalstrong...

 

If you're okay with the price increase for a non-functional, patterned aesthetic, then go for it. My guess would be that one reason the price of that vs the Tojiro DP Damascus is similar is that cost of labor is cheaper in China, perhaps by a significant margin.

With the Tojiro DP, you're buying a no frills blade that works fine OOTB, doesn't feel fragile-thin, can be tweaked to work even better with some time on the stones. Edge retention and overall performance in my experience increased noticeably when kicking up the edge bevel to a touch above ~15 degrees per side (paired with a slight thinning behind the edge).

With any of these more polished looking stainless clad knives, the cladding scratches really easily (if you use a scrubbie to clean your knife, it'll scratch up the blade face) with normal kitchen cleaning and use, so keep that in mind going the Damascus patterned route.

 

Do the sharpening service companies in your area really use stones as opposed to belt grinders to sharpen the knives? 

 

If you do get one of those ceramic pull throughs, probably just stick to using the 'fine' setting on your new knife...and get stones quickly. The knife will get thicker behind the edge over time with more sharpening, and the pull through machines really can't do anything for that. Keep in mind some of the caveats for such machines

- you're stuck with whatever grits and finish it gives 

- you'll need a solution for thinning and maintaining the geometry of the knife over time to maintain performance over time

- you're stuck with whatever angles the machine gives you - there's not that flexibility to go more acute or more obtuse (for example if you prioritize durability. My tweaked Tojiro really seemed to have noticeably better edge retention when used on those hard poly boards at just a touch higher angle than what a lot of these 'asian angle sharpeners' seem to be set at)

post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
Wow foody, that is some knife knowledge you have, if your chefing is on par with your knife skills your food must be knockout! I have tried to post a link I found on a review for the dalstrong shogun on YouTube but can't seem to copy the link to this page. Looks like it does the business as far as the tests go it performs amazingly. Wafer thin slices through tomato with just the knife and no Contact with hands on tomato.

I am really less concerned about aesthetics of knife and certainly would not go for style over substance as the knife would be put through its paces in the kitchen so Damascus pattern is not of concern if it is a redundant feature.

In your estimations foodie, a cut and dry opinion, which would you go for out of dalstrong shogun, tojiro senkou Damascus (presuming that it is faux Damascus and comes with all the problems associated with this that you have highlighted). If none of these in the £120 bracket what would you recommend?

Lastly what do you think about using abrasive tools to sharpen knives and keep edge such as diamond rods? One used in conjunction with stones? Think they do use belt grinders when taking knives away. Is this not a good thing?

Thanks for imparting you wisdom
Edited by dazrg - 2/17/17 at 10:11am
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazrg View Post

Wow foody, that is some knife knowledge you have, if your chefing is on par with your knife skills your food must be knockout! I have tried to post a link I found on a review for the dalstrong shogun on YouTube but can't seem to copy the link to this page. Looks like it does the business as far as the tests go it performs amazingly. Wafer thin slices through tomato

The tomato test is all show; doesn't mean anything. This knife hasn't been sharpened in months, still I can cut a tomato no hands  https://www.instagram.com/p/BPaofqLgA57/

 

My problem with dalstrong

1) No idea how thick or thin it is.  This has a big performance on how it cuts

2) Dunno anything about the heat treatment quality

 

Without at least that much knowledge it is more money than I would gamble.

post #15 of 28

@dazrg There just isn't that much solid info on the Dalstrong. You can make most any knife pass the tomato test with some decent sharpening. I don't know if the Senkou's blade is any different from that of the DP, in which case consider the price difference to be of non-functional features.

 

If you must use a rod in conjunction with the stones, go for a more fine grit ceramic. Diamond abrasives are cut fairly aggressively. 

 

You can take off a lot metal quickly with a belt grinder. But you have better experience with your sharpening service company than I do. How much metal is removed each time? Does the profile of the knife get changed? How are the edges holding up?

post #16 of 28

Korin France has some western handled options in that relative price range http://www.korin-france.fr/nos-collections/couteaux-japonais-occidentaux.html look at Suisin Western Inox and Togiharu Inox. I expect both of these to be ground thinner behind the edge than Tojiro DP, which helps with ease of cutting. Default currency is Euro.

post #17 of 28

I can advise the Dalstrong Shogun Series are 2.5mm thick at the spine, since someone was asking.  Very very nice finish, much nicer than the Toijiro, but the price of the Tojiro is just too good.  I mean the value given the price is pretty unrivaled.    

 

I saw the tomato video someone posted above, the difference being in that video there was a saw motion applied, in the Dalstrong video (which I agree is show) they are done in a single movement.   It's all show anyway and a sharp enough knife will all do that.

 

This seems like a credible review of the Dalstrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRwAWuofCPs

 

Here is the same fellow review the Tojiro:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdJtneYb4cI

 

Both seem to get favourable response.    

post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
Point taken Mk, again thanks. Here is some blurb on the dalstrong if it of any use in filling in the gaps in knowledge on the dalstrong.

The Dalstrong Shogun Series chef knife is painstakingly crafted over 60 days using the highest quality materials, it is both a razor-sharp kitchen powerhouse and artistic statement in premium design and workmanship. Combining ancient Japanese sword making methods with the latest in breakthrough technologies, the Shogun Series is simply unrivaled in performance, beauty and value.

FEATURES AND BENEFITS
The Blade
✓Scalpel like sharpness at a staggering 8-12°degree angle per side
✓Incredible Edge Retention at 62+ Rockwell
✓VG-10 Japanese super steel core
✓67-Layered genuine (never etched) Damascus sharpened under the 3-step Honbazuke method
✓Tapered bolster provides a perfect balance, gently encouraging a natural pinch grip
✓Rust/Corrosion resistant cladding
✓Hand-polished spine
✓Full tang - maximum robustness
✓Triple riveted - even further resilience
✓Beautifully engraved
✓Tapered blade for minimal slicing resistance and non-stick properties
✓Cleans easily
✓Nitrogen cooled for enhanced harness and flexibility
The Handle
✓Military grade G10 handle for life-long durability
✓Highly impervious to heat, cold and moisture
✓Ergonomic handle for superior hand control, agility and comfort
✓Non-slip grip
✓Engraved end cap for further distinction
✓Intricate copper mosaic enhances beauty

INCLUDES
post #19 of 28
62+ HRC vg10 would be extremely brittle. This seems like a flat out lie. The rest of it is marketing BS.

Also 2.5mm at the spine matters if you are cutting with the spine... The rest of us only care about thickness behind the edge

You seem fixated on this knife. Do what ever you want, it's your money. You have to use and sharpen this thing. My advice about a stainless clad vg10 with unknown grind and hardness is NEVER in a million years would I pay money for this. I use all my knives and I care about cutting performance and ease of sharpening/maintenance. That's it. None of those marketing points work on me. This is a flashy housewife knife IMO not a workhorse.
Edited by MillionsKnives - 2/18/17 at 3:59am
post #20 of 28
Thread Starter 
Really appreciate your feedback, I put that info up on the dalstrong as a means for people like yourself to scrutinize and find the BS which sounds like you have done...so nice one.


Only reason fixated on knife as it seems that it is bought straight from manufacturer which is maybe why it is half price. So to get a knife of that presumed quality is tempting.

Totally in agreement in that flashy gimmicks is not what I am after. This is not going to do it for me spending 12+ hours in the kitchen with it! So like you I am all about a workhorse but with the elegance ( if that is the right term ) of a Japanese Knife.

I am now moving towards korin suisin inox or togiharu inox or possibly with little more spend the mosamoto VG. Any
Thoughts on these knives?

Thanks
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
Any thoughts on shelling out extra money and going for HC Rather than VG? This is to do with the fact of the knife actually being put to use in the kitchen.

Thanks
post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks for recommendations from foodie by the way.
post #23 of 28

I'm doubtful an edge of that knife at 8-12 degrees per side will actually hold up well in a kitchen.

 

Note that HC is full carbon, not stainless. Is that something you're comfortable with managing?

post #24 of 28

BDL addressed this question of the Masamoto VG a number of times, and that was long ago now.  The MAC is a better knife.  Better steel, better FF, better handle too allegedly, but that's subjective.  And there are lots of others that will perform better for less.  Like the Iminishi/Munitoshi Millions turned us all onto.

 

For a pro kitchen I am really partial to SRS-15 steel.  Takes a great edge easily, and holds its sharp insanely well.  Unfortunately the prices have really jumped here, $300 for the Geshin Kagero 240 now, amazingly in stock.  I don't know what you can find the Akifusa/Ikea/harayuki for in Europe, but they are all trending around $350 here, and I'd take the Kagero over them any day, all made by the same company but the Kagero to more exacting specs.

 

The Takeda Blue 2 is real great value at under $150.

post #25 of 28
Tanaka KU blue 2 is restocked at metalmaster http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product-list/5

Needs a tiny bit thinning (easy to do on carbon!). Handle is usable but you can upgrade someday, great price for a minor project knife. Will keep up as you grow sharpening skills
post #26 of 28

This is the Akifusa Rick mentioned, looks to be trending at around that $350 USD price point as well http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv-1-2042-2043-detail

Rick, I take it you mean Itinomonn and Tanaka?

 

On the Tanaka handles - oil or find some other way to add water resistance to the wooden handle.

Millions, how do you reactive do you find the Blue #2's cladding to be?

post #27 of 28
Thread Starter 
Yeh can understand why that angle may encounter problems in the kitchen!

Never worked with HC knife, understand the need to baby them to prevent corrosion, with them holding an edge for longer, easier to sharpen etc. Prob answering my own question and not suitable for kitchen environment. If they are so susceptible to the elements, are HC knives actually fit for purpose in the professional kitchen?
post #28 of 28

Dohh!  Yeh Tanaka, not Takeda.

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