Hotel Cooks

Ron,
See my last post in the other thread as a partial explanation. Minorities hold a large portions of the jobs in hotels. Most of them untrained. They are hired because in many cases they have a better work ethic and are more loyal than the more shall we say "priviledged" people that come and go. But that too is another thread.
I'm not sure what Anneke meant by that but most hotels are nothing exceptional and general hotel cooking is one step above institutional. There are a lot of Chefs who spend entire careers there live and die there. Stand alone restaurants are more cutting edge in the culinary world and live a precarious existance to the vagaries and whims of the general public. When a Chef tires of that tightrope many will retire to a hotel that is very predictable and safe.
Of course there are generalizations in my answer and it won't be a tight fit for everyone, but will hopefully give you a partial view of hotel life.

Wow... What he said!

Ron, hotels appeal to people who NEED a job (as opposed to those who are cooks by choice), a predictable earning pattern, benefits and a forty hour week. This is what seems to motivate a large percentage of such cooks. It does not foster an ideal learning environment, but it's great for honing your skills: lots of repetitive work. There's no advantage to them in teaching you as they are not emotionally invested in their work the way a more passionate restaurant chef is. Therefore, you are your own best teacher and your level of disipline will determine - to an extent - what you get out of that experience.

Other advantages to working in hotel: you get exposure to banquets and to breakfasts. Most high end restaurants don't offer you the opportunity to perfect egg cookery. Working in banquets introduces you to large quantity cooking where speed and timing are essential skills to develop.

However, as I said earlier, you probably won't get much of a clue about quality from your collegues. The last hotel I worked for had a breakfast cook who had done the same job for 11 years. Everyone did it his way because he was the senior cook, but all the guests hated his omelettes. He would set them under the salamander; they were tough and rubbery, brown on the outside and often had black bits on it from pans that he reutilised without washing. No one questioned him until finally a scathing article came out about it, and I'm sure he still hasn't changed his ways.

So, maybe the fact that this cook was not very big on educating the apprentices was a godsend in disguise, come to think of it.

My point being, you'll pick up speed and basic skill in a hotel, but when it comes to quality, good taste, and a judicious use of your own creativity, you are on your own.

I want to make it clear that these comments are based on my own experience and on that of many cooks that I have kept in touch with over the years. As in everything, there are many exceptions to what I have written here; I applaud and respect such exceptions immensely...

cooking school
There are pros and cons to both restaurants & hotels but i think there is some truth about "hotel cooks". I work in a hotel in NYC and there are about 80 cooks in the kitchen and not many if anyone there is creative. They come in and do there 7 hrs and go and when they are told to try or do something new they start to pout !! Im 36 and im the youngest one in my department if not the kitchen and the only one in my department "pastry" who ever does new ideas. Hotels do offer security which isnt easy to find in restaurants..but i think you might find more motivated people in restaurants, creativity wise..

pat

So, the reason you don't learn in a hotel is someone else's fault? Please gimme a break. If you don't like working in a hotel, don't blame it on other cooks. Take some responsibility for yourself. If you've convinced yourself that you won't have fun or learn anything then you've already screwed yourself. You guys need to stop stereotyping people and blaming them for your misfortune. It might do you some good.

Kuan

That's absolutely untrue. Minute changes can make a significant impact in a large hotel and this may bring significant positive results. But the downside is that the negatives may be just as bad.

Creativity is not just about the food and about different ways to use old ingredients. There are as many ways to be creative as there are types of learning styles. Just because you don't see something "creative" on your plate doesn't mean the kitchen didin't have to devise a creative way to put the product on the menu.

Kuan

No Kuan. In my case it was my own fault.

It was my fault for willingly staying in a place where I knew cooks were untrained and consistently used the wrong techniques. It was my fault for staying in a place where all my initiatives were turned down for fear of rocking the boat, where all my simplest questions remained unanswered because the people whom I was supposed to copy and learn from didn't know the answers, all the meanwhile they were recieving government subsidies for calling me an apprentice.

So, yes, it was my fault and being responsible for my own learning, I did something about it.

I left.

Kuan, this is not a question of stereotyping people; some systems just breed certain attitudes. I think it's healthy to bring them to light and have an open discussion about it.

Kuan
Sorry if i upset you...but just stating what I see where i work,Every where is different!! I didnt say that you "dont learn" in a hotel ..like i said in my original post, I creat alot and I do take advantage of what the hotel offers me"space,ingredients,equipment,etc" Its up to the person to learn, not up to his/her job.. Sorry for the misunderstanding...

pat

So they failed to meet your expectations. It doesn't justify placing hotel cooks on a different rung as if they're not worthy of being cooks.

Sometimes people are just not the right fit for the job. If the work culture doesn't seem right for the person it's extremely difficult to thrive. It's not them, or me, or the establishment.

Kuan

Kuan, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I never said they aren't worthy of being cooks. They tend not to be very good teachers, that's all. And that's ok because it's not in their job description.

But they do not compare to professionals like yourself or so many others here on Cheftalk who do invest in education, both for themselves and for apprentices, and for the general public. I did specify, this is strictly based on my own experience. You apparently know hotels where this is not the case. Please list them here; this could help aspiring culinarians who are trying to get the best work education possible.

You write: "If the work culture doesn't seem right for the person it's extremely difficult to thrive. It's not them, or me, or the establishment. "

So what is it then?

I've expressed my views based upon my own experience. Since you vehemently disagree, I would like to know specifically what experience you have had to justify your view?

Just a side note: I don't wish to be adversarial about this. Me anglish not so good write now so it might come across that way.:rolleyes:

I do think this is a very relevent and intresting topic that has not received much coverage on CT so I do want to keep this as constructive as possible.

I'd love to get some input from people who have or are working in hotel.

Anneke,

I'm not going to give you a list of what's good and what's not. First of all it's pointless unless you can verify it yourself, which you can't because of the point I'm about to make. Second and even more pointless is that what's good for me is not necessarily what's good for you. It's better if you experience it yourself.

The first and most simple way to see if you will be a good fit is by taking some time and talking to the staff of the establishment. See if they have the same values and priorities as you do. Does Willy the baker show you his baguettes first or pictures of his family? Next, use your eyes and your ears. Look around the place. If you walk into chef's office and see thirty seven gold medals then you know that one of his priorities is cooking competitions. Take a look at his cookbooks or recipes. Is that a bottle of kitchen bucket or balsamic vinegar on the prep counter? Give those red B's a whiff.

As I get older and more cynical, I tend to catch on to more and more subtle cues about foodservice establishments. I can tell by watching the line work if people aren't getting along, I can tell by the body language if they're disatisfied with their job or if something's bugging them. I can tell if there is electricity in the air or if there's a general lack of urgency in the kitchen. Sometimes I just misread things and find out later that I was wrong, but I just take it in stride.

I want to say a little bit about this thread in general. The subject of this thread sets things up in a way which makes us think that we're talking about cooks who work in hotels. Hence we tend to lose focus and talk about "them" and what "they" are like more than we talk about the real problem which is more often than not, ourselves and our relation to the rest of the world.

Kuan

What about Country Inn Cooks?

I've been watching these boards for the past few weeks. My partner and I are in the process of building an 11 room Bed & Breakfast inn with a 45-60 seat restaurant. We are planning to open in July and so far have had very little success in finding a chef. I was hoping to see where you all thought a good place to advertise was, but after reading through various posts; I have a couple other questions.

There seems to be a thought that hotel cooking is just above institutional. Would most cooking professionals veiw a B&B/Inn the same way? We would like to offer a seasonal menu, prix fixe and have a lot of freedom to make changes. Adding in creative breakfasts, the ability to do catering for weddings and other events plus the possibilities of cooking classes should offer quite a professional challenge for someone seeking that. That's our thought, but maybe we've missed the mark?

We've been looking for someone that specifically had country inn experience as we feel that it will be different from a stand alone restaurant; between the variety of the menu to the fact that we don't expect to have a "full house" most nights and even during the busiest season we don't expect to turn the tables more than once in a night (maybe wrong, but we're trying to be conservative in our planning). We didn't think that would have as much appeal to a professional chef from a standard restaurant background, again ~ right or wrong? Does the chance for variety overcome the smaller volume?

In some of the various posts, there have been comments about hiring someone just out of cooking school over experienced that we might have to retrain our way. Understanding that someone having the right attitude is everything over any experience issues ~ would a recent grad have the ability to run a kitchen that diverse?

As you can tell from all this, we don't have the knowledge/skills to run a restaurant. Our goal is to find a managing partner and let them build the business. The only input we want to have in the overall direction is to maintain the quality and sanitation as it would positively or negatively affect the B&B and eventually the winery as they are all under the same umbrella. I have a business consulting background and can help the chef organize that end of things, but the kitchen would be his/hers to run. All that said, what type of package are we going to need to put together as far as compensation/ownership to attract the right person?

Thanks in advance for the assistance with all this

Scott

Where do I send my resume?

If you're interested, you can email it to me or fax it 919-841-4472

Welcome to Cheftalk Labridge!

Having been able to come in to a new kitchen and design menus etc, straight out of school and coming in to this discussion as a B&B owner, I think you can consider a new culinary grad with work experience that wants the opportunities you are able to give them.

You DO need to make sure that both THEY and you have a decent background in foodcost management which is something that a lot of new grads just don't have a good enough grip on and can get a little out of control on, especially in a new "unstructured" environment -- and you see it happen again and again in country inns.

PM me if you'd like, I won't bore everyone with details, there are some other sources of info out there, several in your area. I've got several friends out in the NC area in both the culinary and the B&B/Innkeeping fields - not necessarily both that might know of some good areas to recruit from if you would like as well.

Good Luck!

BigHat beat me to my response! Labridge, what you describe is a dream job for many chefs!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll let someone far wiser then I guide you. But I want to add my two cents, briefly.

Look past resumes, look past experience. Judge the person. Give them honest critiques and see how they respond.

P.S. I've met alot of people that can't manage their personal finances (and time management) regardless of age, experience or career. Again, judge the whole person, find out who they are........not only where they've been.

Wow, what a great topic. with some interesting side bars I might add.
First off I totally agree w/ Kuan about the generalization of hotel workers. The main problem w/ your hotel was that the Chef didn't care. That happens in restaurants too. I work at least 1 breakfast shift a month to see how things are going plus I eat there 6 days a week. My experiance has been that there are very creative chefs in hotels as well as in hotel. Being creative alone doesn't work in this job the need many other skills. Alot of restaurants w/ creative chefs seem to go by the wayside, because they get so caught up in being creative, that they forget about the details that keep the doors open. While creativity is fun(we all need to play from time to time) Consistantcy is much better. We have a steak house in our area called Jockos. No atmosphere, no creativity, nothingt but a great steak. I've had 150 steaks from there and not one was cooked wrong or not trimmed properly. They probably only have 20 - 25 items on their menu but they do they all great. They done that way for the last 100 yrs.

On the B and B question: I run credit checks. If they can't run their personal finances how can I expect they will run mine properly. I would also go to where they work taste their food several times. I also use a paid try out system. I give them a mystery basket and five hours to write, cost and prepare a 4 course menu. They have one of our prep cooks to help if needed. You find out alot w/ a test like that.
Good luck in your adventure.

I love the idea of the paid tryout, and would not have thought of it myself. Thank you! Please explain about the mystery basket? I was thinking of showing them the menus from what we see as our biggest 3 competitors and letting them devise a menu from that, but your way seems alot better in trying out both their creativity and flexibility (since everyday presents unknown challenges, it would be better to see how they can adapt "on the fly")

We do plan on doing a credit/background check for the reasons stated. One thing that hasn't been decided is whether to require them to make any type of upfront investment or just work towards ownership. Any advise is appreciated.

For the Mystery basket we give them a couple of items that are more delicate that are a little harder to cook and require some added skill level. We have them cook in our banquet kitchen that supplies them w/ a stocked pantry and a well designed herb garden if they want fresh herbs. There are no limits placed on them other than time. They make the meal for 6 people and we have our wait staff serve it the canidate must be able to communicate the menu to the staff so that they can do the same to us.

For example our last one chose the seafood basket

His menu was very simple but nice he made
Mixed baby green salad w/a sauvignon blanc dressing
a forest mushroom bisque w/just a hint of sherry
Scallop stuffed petrale sole/w buerre blanc
summer fruit crisp w/ cinn. flavored cream
We pay them anywhere from $100 - $200
depending on the job the are trying out for.


On the ownership thing that open a whole new set of problems. I myself would opt for the earning of ownership thing. What if the person is a jerk? A drunk or a host of other potential problems. Talk w/ your lawyer he should be able to draw up some sort of ownership agreement for you that requires a vestment period.
You and your partner are going to alot of expense to create this business so protect your self. Make sure to create an exit strategy so that if the time comes to part ways you don't have to drain the business to do it. I have found it best and cheaper in the long run to make sure that all my i's and t's are done properly the first time.
If you have any questions I be happy to help if possible. Good luck Again. Mike

If you wanna learn it's up to you to find the best to learn from. I learn from hotel cooks as well as restaurant cooks. I don't believe one is better than the other.

Smart teachers, no. Smart student, yes!

I have learned from hotel cooks, private club cooks, restaurant cooks, fast-food cooks, guest ranch cooks, bistro cooks, greasy spoon cooks, catering cooks, burned out cooks, student cooks, Suzie Homemaker cooks, cyber cooks, part-time cooks, bad cooks, good cooks- you name it. And my ability to learn from any of them was dependent on my attitude, not the establishment. I have learned my MOST IMPORTANT LESSONS from all those people by jumping in, shutting up, keeping an open mind, and doing what I was paid to do. What people seem to forget is that the people who are the "lifers" in these places take their jobs seriously and are protective of their jobs, even into mediocrity. What did working in the hotels that I worked in do for me? It gave me experience in VOLUME! What they lack in finesse they make up for in repetition. How does that translate to what I do now? When I do a big catering of hundreds of people and they all eat at the same time.......

I think the problem here lies, first of all, in a gross generalization about hotels. Hotels are as varied as restaurants, from 4star to crap. Yes, Anneke you may have worked in a lousy one, but I think your experience is clouding how you see the hotel industry. Sure many hotels do a huge business, thus need to keep food simple and consistant, and profitable just like institutions. Especially, those hotels that do lots of convention business. The shear logistics of feeding 4000+ meals each service is maddening. But you have also seem to have forgotten that some of the greatest chefs are hotel chefs. In Europe, many of the Michelin 3-star restaurants are part of hotels. In the US, chefs like Guenter Seeger (Ritz-Carlton in Atlanta) Sara Stegner (Ritz in Chicago), Gary Danko, Gray Kunz, and many others first made their names in hotel restaurants. These are chefs who run some of the highest caliber kitchens in the country, and many cooks wash out of their programs, not because they aren't learning anything, but because the kitchens are too intense, the food too difficult and demanding.

Let us not forget that Escoffier performed his magic at the Savoy.

I edited the quote for brevity. After reading this post I reread my first post and will amend mine to read more like this one.
Pete is right on the money, including what I had said as well. I've worked in no business Ramada Inns to the Grand Hotel and Mayflower Hotels in Washington, D.C. and it was some of the toughest work I have ever done. The most demanding chef I ever worked for was Agostino Buggio at the Mayflower. An absolute dictator in the kitchen and it wasn't until a while later that I realized how much I had actually learned from him. Add to that what Peach said about learning from EVERYONE which I always tried to do. You may find a cook who is absolutely wretched at everything he touchs but has an uncanny touch with an omelet and so you learn that from him and disregard the rest. So you can learn something from everyone!

I'm sticking to my guns here folks. I never made blanket statements about hotels and I acknowledged that there are definite advantages. I go to work every day with a positive attitude, ready to learn and work hard. I wish I could say that I exaggerated my descriptions and experiences. But the fact that my co-workers and collegues from other hotels seem to have shared similar experiences leads me to believe that I'm clearly not alone in feeling this way. We're adults here. Sometimes "having the right attitude" doesn't cut it, and you have to know when there's a problem, and just how much of it is within your control.

You guys will not guilt me into retracting my comment!! ;)

:) Score one for the Non-Retractors! yea!:)

I have definitely seen a lot of what you're talking about, even to an almost identical omelette maker (he's probably still there; they wanted me to leave after I suggested taking most of the 100 omelette options off the menu 'cause it was no longer the 70's!).

When I first came to NYC, I purposely AVOIDED hotels for that reason, besides the fact there is so much more out there. My last hotel gig ended when the ownership wouldn't budge on an updated menu after hiring me to revamp it. The staff there was union, and had been there an average of 19 years! with the knife and sanitation skills of newbies. I had no qualms about working on them, but the owner....what can ya do?

NOW, I'm looking at hotel jobs because they offer "stability" and all the reasons already mentioned.

BUT!!

I don't think there is a huge difference......., there are LOTS of restaurants with the same limitations, drawbacks, lack of creativity, motivation to teach others, etc. Lots and lots of BADD restaurants. I think it is a generalization that is widely accepted but not necessarily true and my advice to anyone who is in the position of not learning in a hotel kitchen is to FIND ANOTHER!:)

Anneke, these are all your own quotes. I think the first four rebutt the last one. I am sorry that there is a lack of good hotels in your area, but these statements make all hotels seem as if they are all sub-par and that is just not true. Check out some of the chefs I mentioned earlier if you are not familar with them. Check out what is going on in the Ritzs, Four Seasons, Hiltons, Hotel Ws around the country. These are not shabby establishments. Sure many hotels are not known for their cutting edge cuisine but that is because they have such a large client base that it makes serving that food unprofitable, but that doesn't mean that there aren't good things happening at hotels. I can continue naming great hotels, that serve great food, but I think I have made my point.

Finally, I can name a bunch of restaurants were your quotes hold true. Sure there are hotels that are crap (as I said in my previous post), but there are many restaurants that suffer the same problems. To make such statements I think is really unfair to the hotel industry.

Since we're quoting out of context:


Look, I'm glad you've all had such great experiences in hotel. Obviously, it was good for you. It wasn't good for me, and the dozens of collegues who left hotels and now thrive in other environmnents. I can only share with you what my experience has been and I was very clear about that. Please don't overestimate the one little opinion I've shared here. It's an OPINION. I'm allowed to disagree, no?
:rolleyes:

I worked in hotel casinos for 6 years and man did I learn a lot .We used to run about 12,000 through the buffet daily . 1,200 a shift through the 200 seat 24 hour coffee shop and anywhere from 600 to 1000 through the steak house . Not to mention we had an employee cafeteria which gave a free meal to every employee each shift . This was about 2300 meals daily . We used to cook off about 80 primes a night with the weekends sometimes going over 100 ( we sold a pound cut for $6.95 ) I used to sell Steak and Lobster for $6.95 in the coffee shop . This item alone was over 40% of the coffee shops P.M. sales .
Now talk about attitudes and personalities well all I can say is that I was the restraunt chef for the coffee shop and I set the pace and the mood for the crew . We who do this for a living tend to be very strong personalities , I know I am and I know I like to have a good work envirement and since I am the chef , well thats just how its going to be ,or else we might need to be having one of them inside the walkin talks ;) .
OK Just my 2 cents , Clear skies , Doug................