[hookedcook]

It's a big step but not sure if its the right one.  Worked for the Landrys corporation 16 years ago.  The idea isn't bad if it's done right.  I spend time in Europe and just got back from spending a month in Australia where its how its done.  If the service is good you leave your change and a buck or two.  On the other hand a server in Australia usually makes 20+ dollars an hour.  Not sure the average rate in the UK or euro countries but its not 12.00 an hour like Landrys is paying. But Europe is different where service is a trained profession and you have career waiters. But it is a fact that you do get much better service when a waiter is working for tips.  Its human nature,  why work harder than you have to if you still get paid the same amount?  Part of me laughs and says welcome to the line cooks world.  Once the taxes are taken out for the week, time to plan your budget and figure out how to pay the bills.  Maybe that bitterness of the chefs against servers will be gone when you know they are making what you make and they actually have to deal with the customers!!!!  I have worked FOH and BOH, when I was in my early 20's and really needed to make some real cash I would cook 3 days and wait tables/ bartend 3 days a week.  I could make more cash in three days waiting tables than 2 weeks cooking.  That's just the way it is.  I can seriously see all of the servers quitting and working at another restaurant when the realize how much money they will make when they get paid hourly and have to pay taxes for all of their income.  As for the corporation I worked for them for a year.  It's all about money, always is, its corporate, their has to be some really smart lawyers and accounts that decided to take this step, its a big one.  Prices go up on the menu accordingly,  I can see them just adding that little extra and take it to the bank.  We'll see who follows the leader.  In the end it puts customers in the US are now in an awkward situation.  Yes the servers are getting paid more an hour but its really not much money and in general will be making 1/2 of what they made before working at any decent restaurant.  So now you are paying at 20% + more for the food.  And then feel bad knowing most waiters/ waitresses are working their way through school to move on to bigger and better things and now they are taking home 350-375 dollars a week average like line cooks, so in the end I'll still leave the same tip. 

 

[chefross]

This issue will have many people at both ends of the spectrum talking for a long time.

"But it is a fact that you do get much better service when a waiter is working for tips. Its human nature, why work harder than you have to if you still get paid the same amount?"

I know very little about Europe and their waitstaff ways, but I would think that if one is a trained career server, they have higher expectations set for them, so they do work harder.

But I can see your point about human nature. It is what it is.

More and more places in the US are going tip-less and raising their prices to that end.

Perhaps the end result will be that those places that do this will find that those servers who feel they are getting the shaft will move on leaving only those who embrace the idea to stay.

 

[cheflayne]

But it is a fact that you do get much better service when a waiter is working for tips. Its human nature, why work harder than you have to if you still get paid the same amount?

Do you cook much better when you are working for tips? Humans that have that nature, I try to avoid hiring. I prefer to hire people that are self motivated by nature.

 

[hookedcook]

In the last 8 months I have spent time in places where tipping is not expected like France, Spain, Portugal, the Canary Islands and Australia. Like any restaurant there are good waiters and bad waiters. I have had great service and meals in tip less countries But from my experiences the service it's not nearly like countries where tipping is the majority of the servers income which is mostly only the US.

Also, from my experience servers are only there for one thing, MONEY. For most in the US, it is an in between job while they are in school or unemployed waiting for "their real job" to begin. Some like the life style, fast money, and minimal responsibility and stay for awhile or forever. Where most chefs its a career starting as a line cook on the fryer knowing if you work hard you can work your way to an Executive chef one day. Usually along they way you get the disease of wanting to be the best you can be and caring about every plate of food that leaves your kitchen. In the end its your reputation and name printed on the menu. Why else would you work 80 hours a week in a high pressure environment for shit money and keep repeating the process. Cheers /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif

 

[hookedcook]

More and more places in the US are going tip-less and raising their prices to that end.

Perhaps the end result will be that those places that do this will find that those servers who feel they are getting the shaft will move on leaving only those who embrace the idea to stay.

Why would you embrace the idea to make less than 1/2 the money you made before?? That's why this is an interesting topic. Any good hard working fine dining server that's used to making 100-300 dollars a night will freak out when the are going to get paid 12-15 dollars an hour and pay taxes on it. 8 hour shift at 12 dollars an hour= 96 dollars, take 20-25% off that you are making 75 bucks a shift which in any good restaurant is a horrible night. If your a restaurant owner maybe it makes more sense or more profit??? But I grew up in Florida working where there is a tip exclusion for FOH, I think my last waiting /bartend was making 2.55 an hour. That was 15 years ago, maybe up to 4.00 now. After taxes for a two week paycheck I was lucky to make 10-30 dollars because all my money was tips. As an employer I figure that would be easier than to have a huge payroll, but not experienced in that area.

 

[chefross]

Do you cook much better when you are working for tips? Humans that have that nature, I try to avoid hiring. I prefer to hire people that are self motivated by nature.

I don't Chef... I've never cooked for tips in my whole career.

 

[chefross]

Why would you embrace the idea to make less than 1/2 the money you made before?? That's why this is an interesting topic. Any good hard working fine dining server that's used to making 100-300 dollars a night will freak out when the are going to get paid 12-15 dollars an hour and pay taxes on it. 8 hour shift at 12 dollars an hour= 96 dollars, take 20-25% off that you are making 75 bucks a shift which in any good restaurant is a horrible night. If your a restaurant owner maybe it makes more sense or more profit??? But I grew up in Florida working where there is a tip exclusion for FOH, I think my last waiting /bartend was making 2.55 an hour. That was 15 years ago, maybe up to 4.00 now. After taxes for a two week paycheck I was lucky to make 10-30 dollars because all my money was tips. As an employer I figure that would be easier than to have a huge payroll, but not experienced in that area.

My argument here is and will always be the
unequal pay that exists between the FOH and BOH.
Servers and cooks are a necessary combination for any restaurant anywhere.
Why should a cook who may or may not have spent countless years in culinary school, plus many years experience get paid less than server who came in off the street and was trained by following another server for 2-3 weeks before being left on their own?

Yes we can bring up that unfair pay issue over and over again.
I have always been against tipping. I have a difficult time understanding the logic behind all of it.
Why am I being forced as the customer to offset a server's pay because the restaurant is too unwilling to pay a descent wage?
This is my beef. It makes no sense.

To continue to do something simply because that's the way it's always been.... Silly?

 

[phaedrus]

My argument here is and will always be the
unequal pay that exists between the FOH and BOH.
Servers and cooks are a necessary combination for any restaurant anywhere.
Why should a cook who may or may not have spent countless years in culinary school, plus many years experience get paid less than server who came in off the street and was trained by following another server for 2-3 weeks before being left on their own?

Yes we can bring up that unfair pay issue over and over again.
I have always been against tipping. I have a difficult time understanding the logic behind all of it.
Why am I being forced as the customer to offset a server's pay because the restaurant is too unwilling to pay a descent wage?
This is my beef. It makes no sense.

To continue to do something simply because that's the way it's always been.... Silly?

Quoted for truth! Tipping is an asinine practice that needs to go away. I have seen virtually no correlation between tipping and service, none. In virtually every other field you're expected to do your job competently for an agreed upon wage or salary. Will an airline pilot crash the plane because he's not getting a tip? Would you expect to have to slip your surgeon a few bucks before he does a knee replacement? It sounds ludicrous when applied to most jobs but for some reason it's expected for servers. What does a server do to deserve the money compared to the cooks? In many restaurants a captain or expo actually delivers the food and the busser may actually provide more service to the table than the server does. And as Chefross points out, why do we single out that one single link in the chain for a tip? Why not the cook that spent $85,000 on culinary school? Why not the busser or captain that is working her way through medical school? Why not the hostess that greets you and takes you to your table? It's all completely arbitrary.

I really don't buy that the possibility of a tip causes a server to provide better service. Having worked in the industry for 25+ years (probably more like 30) with some of that working as a server I am of the mind that most people have decided what they'll tip before they get in the front door. To be sure, shitty service will knock it down a bit but not too much. Great service will perhaps help but a nice ass or pretty smile helps more.

The biggest issue I have is that customers are expected to provide the staff with a living wage. Why should the burden fall upon the diner instead of the business owner? Why the dishwasher "deserve" minimum wage but the server doesn't? And in reality what does it matter if the menu cost is 20% higher if you no longer have to tip 20%? It's the same cost to the patron. Of course, some like to lord over the server and the tip gives them some power. That's another shitty thing- why must being a server so resemble being a prostitute? Good service will be rewarded in the same manner that a good cook is rewarded, with regular reviews and career advancement. Bad servers should be fired, not given poor tips.

And fuck 'em if they don't like being taxed on it. They should be paying taxes on their tips anyway. That's the law everywhere in the US at least, that I'm aware of. There is some cheating but the IRS knows pretty damn well how much tips a server makes. If they aren't paying it they should be in jail.

 

[chefross]

The laws the govern the tipping issue here in the USA also include that if a server DOES NOT make at least minimum wage WITH the tips, the house has to come up with the rest. It's the law and many many places simply ignore this.

Now....there is the other side to consider.

An example: A line cook may work 12-14 hours at $14.00 an hour bringing home after taxes about $140.00  ($14.00 x 14 minus 30%)

A server will work a 4-6 hour shift and make 3-4 times that amount in tips during that time.

A line cook in a busy place works physically hard. Dangerous environment and all. 

A wait person in a busy place also has their share of challenges though, but in a different format.

That format is having to deal with the customer.

Some days it's smooth sailing, while other days the job of a server can be just as crazy and challenging as anything that could happen in a kitchen.

So...to that end...who's to say who deserves their pay more?

It all comes down to the location location location.

 

[phaedrus]

Servers do work very hard. I did a brief stint as a server in my early 20's that cemented my understanding that I am made to be BOH.  I think both deserve fair wages.  You need good waitstaff- they're the face of your restaurant.  You need good cooks too since good service means little without good food.  A lot of the BOH vs FOH warfare would go away if tipping went away.  It's a big cause of resentment, especially among the younger line cooks, to come in and work 12 hours in a hot, dangerous kitchen to take home less money than a server earns in three hours.  The weaker/newer servers will also resent being saddled with the lower earning lunch shifts, too.  A certain amount of sidework (eg rolling silverware, cleaning) is expected to be done at the lower server wage, often as low as $2.13/hour.

 

[recky]

I have to veto the statement that in Europe most waiters are career waiters. This may have been the case until the 1970s; in Southern European countries there may well be a few of those well-trained pros left, mainly blokes, in fact. The one exception I can think of is top-notch fine-dining.

Outside of university cities restaurants in many Northern European countries struggle to find capable waitstaff; in rural areas we are hard pressed to find anyone at all willing to work at a restaurant. In uni towns at least there are lots of young, untrained people to choose from. Hardly anyone stays in this job for more than a couple of years.

Without exception, waitstaff in Europe are on an hourly wage (anything else would be illegal), and the vast majority earn minimum wage (the equivalent of 10 USD in Germany) plus tips, around 4-7% of checks.

The overall quality standard is very low, with a few notable exceptions that really stick out when you meet someone like that or have the opportunity to employ them. Most waitstaff you have to train like puppies - they don't know their red from their white wine. The best you can hope for is that they are naturally friendly and accommodating to the customers. All too often, waiters appear like they're doing you a favour. But that was the case even when there were still a few career waiters around - Italian 'penguins' being the most notorious ones.

Cheers,

Recky

 

[foodpump]

Hi hookedcook.

I think the most intelligent thing to do is to explain the "birds and the bees" of the U.S. Hospitality industry to you.

Firstly, you country is split into"right to work" States and non rigjt to work States. Wash State, for example is Not a right to work, minimim wages are over$10./hr, and this is what most servers earn. In right to work states, a "tipping wage"is in place which is much lower than the min. wage, and can be as low as $2.50/hr. I, along with many other people, have difficulty understnding this, and a whole lot of contempt for the State govt s and the lobbyists who made this happen.

The second thing you have to acknowledge is that in the U.S. , a tip is expected to be a percentage of the entire bill. Now, as hard as a server works, they can never be responsible for the entire dining experience. In several states it is illegal to make the server share tips.

So, you can drive a car with a hole in the oil pan for a while, and tell everyone they're full of crap that you need to change your oil regularily, look at me, I can drive it without oil and it runs! But sooner or later, the engine will sieze up and the head will warp and crack.

What Im trying to tell you is that the hospilality industry is one of the largest, and that tourisim and hospitality is one of the major drivers in any State--or country for that matter, economy. Yet, it seems no State or even fed govt gives a turd about how the hospilality industry is run, or if is sustainable. No other country that Im aware of, expects diners to tip their servers 20% of the dining bill, and every non-US diner has serious issues with paying a 20% tip.

Hope this gives you some insight....

 

[saltedchefsst]

Yes Food Pump makes a good point. 

 

[hookedcook]

Hi hookedcook.

I think the most intelligent thing to do is to explain the "birds and the bees" of the U.S. Hospitality industry to you.

Firstly, you country is split into"right to work" States and non Right to work States. Wash State, for example is Not a right to work, minimum wages are over$10./hr, and this is what most servers earn. In right to work states, a "tipping wage"is in place which is much lower than the min. wage, and can be as low as $2.50/hr. I, along with many other people, have difficulty understanding this, and a whole lot of contempt for the State govt s and the lobbyists who made this happen.

The second thing you have to acknowledge is that in the U.S. , a tip is expected to be a percentage of the entire bill. Now, as hard as a server works, they can never be responsible for the entire dining experience. In several states it is illegal to make the server share tips.

So, you can drive a car with a hole in the oil pan for a while, and tell everyone they're full of crap that you need to change your oil regularly, look at me, I can drive it without oil and it runs! But sooner or later, the engine will sieze up and the head will warp and crack.

What Im trying to tell you is that the hospilality industry is one of the largest, and that tourisim and hospitality is one of the major drivers in any State--or country for that matter, economy. Yet, it seems no State or even fed govt gives a turd about how the hospilality industry is run, or if is sustainable. No other country that Im aware of, expects diners to tip their servers 20% of the dining bill, and every non-US diner has serious issues with paying a 20% tip.

Hope this gives you some insight....

I was born and raised in the states and have a good idea how it works here. Just been mostly out the last 10 years. Believe me I'm all for an equal hourly rate for FOH and BOH. I can just see the servers and bartenders freaking out and throwing a national strike because they actually have to work hard to get paid minimal compensation like cooks/chefs. Kind of like the taxi drivers (biggest con artists worldwide) strike freaking out about uber. You mean I can have no education and I can charge someone 100 dollars an hour to drive a old car from point a to point be and then expect a tip??? I know the driver doesn't get most of it but its the same deal. Good for uber, taxi drivers suck balls, maybe if enough corporate restaurants get on board it could actually happen over time with no tips but people don't like change. Look at obomacare, the idea is good but there is always resistance and kinks to work out. The day I see a server at a fine dining restaurant make the same money for the night as a line cook I'll buy the whole restaurant a round of drinks!!!

 

[foodpump]

Not quite the same..... You'd freak out if you knew what a taxi license costs, and what insurance on the vehicle costs, let alone fuel and minimal maintenence.

But back to restaurants. I'm sure by now you've talked to hundreds if not thousands of Europeans, Aussies, Asians, etc. They all get really p. o.d when the get "conned" into paying 20% tips. I mean violently upset. First question they always ask is "why can't these Americans pay their employees a decent salary?".

But for close to one half of your States govt's to extend their middle finger to minimum wage regulations and get suckered by lobbyists with their "tipping wages", how long do you think this can go on? 20% is the norm now, can you forsee a time when this will crawl up to 25%? Will fine dining survive, or will take ot food quality improve dramatically?

 

[hookedcook]

Not quite the same..... You'd freak out if you knew what a taxi license costs, and what insurance on the vehicle costs, let alone fuel and minimal maintenence.

But back to restaurants. I'm sure by now you've talked to hundreds if not thousands of Europeans, Aussies, Asians, etc. They all get really p. o.d when the get "conned" into paying 20% tips. I mean violently upset. First question they always ask is "why can't these Americans pay their employees a decent salary?".

But for close to one half of your States govt's to extend their middle finger to minimum wage regulations and get suckered by lobbyists with their "tipping wages", how long do you think this can go on? 20% is the norm now, can you forsee a time when this will crawl up to 25%? Will fine dining survive, or will take ot food quality improve dramatically?

Understandably, not to get off topic again, butt???. Why is a taxi license expensive in the states?? A license for what?? What qualifications?? When I just came back for me to fish for a week where I grew up. A freshwater license/ a saltwater license/ a lobster stamp/ and a snook stamp. Out of state license= over 100 dollars to go fishing. You even need a license if you want to fish from the beach. It's the same made up shit that doesn't exhist in most of the world. It's an old antiquated system of paying lots of middleman run by the big man. I know in the islands medallions are limited and you buy them like a car or house. Once you buy it you own it and can sell it when you want to. How come uber drivers don't have to have expensive licenses?? I know they have to have a certain amount of insurance but everybody in the states does. Taxi's over many years have just decided to make up their own prices. Kind of like tow trucks. 250-300 dollars to tow your car 5 miles. It's made up b.s. pricing because they can. I know this has nothing to do with cooking but how can you justify paying a cab driver 30 dollars for a 10 minute 5 mile ride. Like I tell the cab drivers who's meters don't seem to work all of a sudden, must be nice making 200 dollars an hour to drive a car around town. As for your 2nd comment, most don't mind because the price is cheaper here so the tip pretty much equals the price you pay. In Australia a burger is 15-20 dollars and a beer is 5. As the American decent salary?? Not sure they really care? It's just strange for foreigners how a government can pay someone 2.15 an hour and take more in taxes than they got paid after 2 weeks. Don't shoot the messenger, just observations. Not really sure of a solution and don't really care. The post was started because I can picture every server I ever worked with having a nervous breakdown when they get paid 12 taxed dollars an hour and it made me laugh! It's all good, back to the Caribbean next week where not to much is important.

 

[foodpump]

License to operate a taxi in the city of------. Every city is different, with the largest cities charging the most, many on an auction basis. Next time you're back home, ask the taxi driver what it costs in his city. The cities earn big bucks this way, food trucks pay a lot too. Insurance on a taxi is much, much higher than a regular car. When I lived in S'pore the gov't slapped a 300% importbduty on each car, and then a license on top of that.

Getting back to food, or restaurant related topics. My city, Vancouver, charges businesses 433% more in property taxes than the residents, I'm paying more tax for a 900sq ft shop than the guy
with a two story home and a 120 x33 ft lot. Then there's yearly business license fees, health inspection fees, rent, and utilities, and then the regular stuff.


Overhead is a nasty word, its what makes a taxi driver charge you what he does, and a restaurant charge what they do. If you want to live in a world with no taxes, try the African countries, not much of a lifestyle or infrastructure (or clean water for that matter) but there's no taxes.

A bit of trivia for you though. Many of the posters on this site have their own businesses, or are aware of overhead costs. Your posts are somewhat....refreshing...

 

[akat]

global industry rising ? are we ALL going to strike on a friday lunch ? (that's when "they" will notice the most) we can't strike because we are all small to medium business, really. maybe free parking in the city, free dental... take it to the street hospitality workers !

 

[panini]

Not quite the same..... You'd freak out if you knew what a taxi license costs, and what insurance on the vehicle costs, let alone fuel and minimal maintenence.

But back to restaurants. I'm sure by now you've talked to hundreds if not thousands of Europeans, Aussies, Asians, etc. They all get really p. o.d when the get "conned" into paying 20% tips. I mean violently upset. First question they always ask is "why can't these Americans pay their employees a decent salary?".

But for close to one half of your States govt's to extend their middle finger to minimum wage regulations and get suckered by lobbyists with their "tipping wages", how long do you think this can go on? 20% is the norm now, can you forsee a time when this will crawl up to 25%? Will fine dining survive, or will take ot food quality improve dramatically?

Understandably, not to get off topic again, butt???. Why is a taxi license expensive in the states?? A license for what?? What qualifications?? When I just came back for me to fish for a week where I grew up. A freshwater license/ a saltwater license/ a lobster stamp/ and a snook stamp. Out of state license= over 100 dollars to go fishing. You even need a license if you want to fish from the beach. It's the same made up shit that doesn't exhist in most of the world. It's an old antiquated system of paying lots of middleman run by the big man. I know in the islands medallions are limited and you buy them like a car or house. Once you buy it you own it and can sell it when you want to. How come uber drivers don't have to have expensive licenses?? I know they have to have a certain amount of insurance but everybody in the states does. Taxi's over many years have just decided to make up their own prices. Kind of like tow trucks. 250-300 dollars to tow your car 5 miles. It's made up b.s. pricing because they can. I know this has nothing to do with cooking but how can you justify paying a cab driver 30 dollars for a 10 minute 5 mile ride. Like I tell the cab drivers who's meters don't seem to work all of a sudden, must be nice making 200 dollars an hour to drive a car around town. As for your 2nd comment, most don't mind because the price is cheaper here so the tip pretty much equals the price you pay. In Australia a burger is 15-20 dollars and a beer is 5. As the American decent salary?? Not sure they really care? It's just strange for foreigners how a government can pay someone 2.15 an hour and take more in taxes than they got paid after 2 weeks. Don't shoot the messenger, just observations. Not really sure of a solution and don't really care. The post was started because I can picture every server I ever worked with having a nervous breakdown when they get paid 12 taxed dollars an hour and it made me laugh! It's all good, back to the Caribbean next week where not to much is important.

@hookedcook

The things you're discussing off topic really fall under luxuries. Taxi driving as I know it in cities is a money maker for the owners. They put so many cars out there it becomes so competitive. Drivers usually don't make squat and drive 20 hr shifts to get by. Sports is the same way. Fishing has become so costly because of all the bureaucratic bs. If oil companies screw up the water they get huge fines that they usually don't pay or go to some agency. So it is left up to the fisherman to introduce cash into these projects.

Anyway, I know in New York Danny Meyers (sort of a big time player in eateries) is going to try to change the tipping structure. New York goes to 7+ dollars for servers by the end of the year.

He is going to try what everyone is talking about here. He is going to charge an administrative charge to checks which will raise the prices (he says 20%) but realistically it will be about 30-35%. All those moneys are going to employees. He owns a pretty nice group, I think he's starting with Gramercy and Union Square.

The hospitality industry is the largest here. I was shocked that a huge percentage of Female servers in this industry sometimes don't even make minimum wage and live below the poverty level. I'm always thinking about the nicer places where servers do well. I was shocked about the amount of sexist and racist reports from servers.

It would not surprize me one bit if this change doesn't have lobbyist promoting it. It's a fact that the amount of undisclosed income among servers is a huge cash cow the Gov't is missing out on. I think you will see a lot of political support for this change in the time to come.

This also won't prevent patrons from tipping servers more, so I don't agree with the idea that servers won't work as hard or not care about patrons.

Just me 2 cents

 

[akat]

I like the idea of tax, where we all put in a bit to get things as a community that we could never afford individually... but, well there are too many gangsters in government and it just makes a joke of the whole situation. especially when giant mega-corps like google and apple etc pay less tax (as a percentage) than my waitress. I will never write my FOH tips down EVER ! last week one of my girls got a $300 tip for a $200 meal, WELL DONE HER ! keep it, have fun with it. At the bottom end of the economy I think we ALL pay enough tax as it is, take it to the TOP end of town Mr Politician !