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French flour is a soft wheat flour like White Lily AP flour that's produced in the southern states.
Kokopuffs,
Yes White Lily is a soft wheat, so lower gluten content. But variety of wheat is just one factor in gluten content. Cultivation conditions (soil, climate, herbicides, etc.) impact flour's final composition.

For instance, the average French pastry flour has 9% protein and less than
 

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................I use a premium brand flour; same flour brand used by bakeries like Tartine, Acme, and Josey Baker. The pastry flour is soft wheat. Protein is 10%; Ash is 0.52--higher than the average French pastry flour. Higher protein effects dough elasticity; higher ash effect texture (higher ash, more coarse the crumb).
What's the name of the flour that you use?
 

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What's the name of the flour that you use?
Central Milling. It's not sold in stores that I am aware of since they supply the trade. But they make a number of flours available to the consumer through their website. If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, the all purpose flour sold at Whole Foods under their 365 label is actually Central Milling flour. They are a partner of a local bakery supply company called Keith Giusto Bakery Supply in Petaluma, CA. Giusto repackages the bulk flour into 5 lb bags for the home consumer. I use their organic line, but they have a conventional line of flours as well.

https://centralmilling.com
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
After reading and reading all these comments, I decided to make some raisin tarts. For the pastry, I used 3/4 pastry flour + 1/4 allpurpose (my idea). These flours were from a bulk store and I don't know who the mfr is.

I've never used pastry flour before, since most recipes tell you to use A.P., plus telling you that pastry flour is more difficult and you have to be more experienced at pastry making etc.

This dough was the nicest I've ever made and the tarts were perfect.

@Norcalbaker59 That is a most beautiful pie!
 

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After reading and reading all these comments, I decided to make some raisin tarts. For the pastry, I used 3/4 pastry flour + 1/4 allpurpose (my idea). These flours were from a bulk store and I don't know who the mfr is.

I've never used pastry flour before, since most recipes tell you to use A.P., plus telling you that pastry flour is more difficult and you have to be more experienced at pastry making etc.

This dough was the nicest I've ever made and the tarts were perfect.

@Norcalbaker59
That is a most beautiful pie!
CONGRATULATIONS! I'm glad to hear your raisin tarts were a success. Raisin tarts make me think of my grandma's mincemeat pie. Every Thanksgiving and Christmas everyone wanted and ate the pumpkin pie--so I got the whole mincemeat pie to myself:)). And her fruitcake too!
 

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After reading and reading all these comments, I decided to make some raisin tarts. For the pastry, I used 3/4 pastry flour + 1/4 allpurpose (my idea). These flours were from a bulk store and I don't know who the mfr is.

I've never used pastry flour before, since most recipes tell you to use A.P., plus telling you that pastry flour is more difficult and you have to be more experienced at pastry making etc............
A suggestion: if you're not already doing so please weigh all of your ingredients. It's much faster and more accurate.

I've never read that pastry flour is more difficult to use. Bee ess. I contains less gluten than AP and BF.

Which fat did you use for your pastry doughs????? This ingredient, we'd all like to know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Hi, kids! Thanks for all the nice words and advice.

@Brian & Kokopuffs & Norcal. I used butter. I'm interested in knowing why weighing is better than measuring. We would have to be using a recipe that gives the weights instead of volume?

I think maybe my pastry came out so nice because I used really cold butter - straight from the refrig. I cut it into small cubes first.

Then combined these little cubes with the flour using a - wait for it - potato masher, the metal kind with holes, not wires. This was the first time I tried this as I have always had some trouble getting the pieces of butter the right size. The dough looked just right to me even though I was just guessing.

Also allowed the dough to chill and rest as has been advised here.

In the past, I think I was careless about some aspects, but reading here, I see the importance of proper procedure. That is probably more important than using pastry flour but I will never go back to 100% AP flour.

Many thanks to all for your advice and interest. Those tarts were so good. So, next question:

Why can't we make a raisin pie using tart ingredients? Does the larger volume have something to do with this?
 

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Wyandotte,

Baking is all about the science. So professional and advance baker's use weight measurements to ensue correct ratios of flour, to fats, to liquids, to sugar, to leavening.. If any of the ratios are off, it will have an adverse impact on the end product.

Ingredients do not weigh the same. For example:
1 cup of granulated sugar weighs 7 ounces or 200 grams.
1 cup of all purpose flour weighs 4.25 ounces or 120 grams.
1 cup of pastry flour weighs 3.75 ounces or 106 grams.
1 teaspoon of baking powder weighs 4 grams.
1 teaspoon of baking soda weighs 6 grams.

Weighing ingredients is far more accurate that volume measurements. When you use a measuring cup you can easily pack substantially more or less into the cup, depending on the way you fill the cup. If you dip the cup into flour, then level, you end up with a lot more than 4.25 oz/200 g. If you use the spoon fill, then level method you can get less than the 4.25 oz/200 g.

In addition to accuracy of measurement, weight measurement allows you to scale a recipe. If you need to make 8 pies, you use baker's percentages to calculate the amount of each ingredient. You can't take a recipe and simply multiple it by 8--the ratios will be off the more a recipe is multiplied.

With a formula, you will get consist results whether you make 1 pie crust or 100 pie crusts because the percentages ensures the ratios will be the same no matter how large or small the batch.

If you are making cake batter, and you decide to use a different size pan, baker's percentages allow you to scale the recipe to the pan. Important because the difference between an 8" round cake pan and 9" round cake pan is only 1" but that translates to a difference in batter amounts to just over 28%.

Professional baker's and many advanced baker's use formulas instead of recipes. For instance, my pie recipe is written as follows:

20 grams per inch
Flour 1.00 (55/45 blend Beehive to Pastry)
Butter .80
Water .32
Sugar .12
Salt .01 (dissolve in ice water)

Flour is always 100%--always. Even if there's more of another ingredient, flour remains 100%, always. My chocolate chunk cookie has more sugar by weight than flour. It reads:
Flour 1.0
Sugar 1.10

I use metric weight since it's more accurate than US weight.

This link below is to King Arthur Flour weight conversion chart of commonly used baking ingredients. Their weights are pretty much the standard. But some recipe developers use different flour weights. Dorie Greenspan uses 136 g/per cup of flour. America's Test Kitchen use 142 g/per cup of flour.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/learn/ingredient-weight-chart.html

There's also a site called Traditional Oven that will convert volume to weight.
 

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...........................Weighing ingredients is far more accurate that volume measurements. When you use a measuring cup you can easily pack substantially more or less into the cup, depending on the way you fill the cup. If you dip the cup into flour, then level, you end up with a lot more than 4.25 oz/200 g. If you use the spoon fill, then level method you can get less than the 4.25 oz/200 g.............
...and if you fluff then scoop the flour with a scoop without compressing it and gently dispense into a one cup measure, then level it, the amout of flour will weigh even less. That's the reason to weigh ingredients, it's more accurate and consistent.
 

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I've used a potato masher for a lot more than just mashing potatos, but I never thought of using one for making pie crust (or pate brisee either). If you said you used a wire one I wouldn't be scratching my head so much. But a flat one with holes... how innovative, experimental, and avant guarde. Good for you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
@BrianShaw. If you said you used a wire one I wouldn't be scratching my head so much. But a flat one with holes... how innovative, experimental, and avant guarde. Good for you!

Grazie! Mille grazie!

@Norcal. That is surely the most scientific approach to ingredients I've ever read. I imagine there's even more to know, though, if you take a course in professional pastry making. I do sometimes weigh things because I do have a few old recipes on hand that were given to me. I should weigh all the ingredients, I guess. Except for ordinary cooking.
 

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.................... I do sometimes weigh things because I do have a few old recipes on hand that were given to me. I should weigh all the ingredients, I guess. Except for ordinary cooking.
Again, weighing ingredients is much much faster and more accurate therefore consistent. Just think how much easier it is to make typical bread dough using baker's percentages than converting cup measures chen changing the amount of dough that you're gonna' make.
 

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Butter matters. Higher fat butters work best. But don't use a pliable brand like kerrygold. It's too soft and makes a greasy crust. I prefer Pulgra.

Cultured butters will work well, but some brands like Vermont Creamery with 86% butterfat can be greasy. I like Trader Joe's cultured butter, but it's salted, so reduce the amount of salt if you try it..........................
I'm noticing that my pate brisees made with Kerrygold seem greasier, that the butter softens more readily during rolling out.
 

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Home cook here, but I've made many successful pie crusts over the last 30 years. I thought I knew what I was doing until about two months ago, when I tried something new and it blew my mind. The method detailed above by norcalbaker59 was something I had never heard of until recently. I was looking for a new pie crust recipe because I had run out of unsalted butter. I found a recipe with 3 ingredients - salted butter, flour, and ice water. Sounded strange, but the method employed was exactly like the one described above. I've never done that before but I was intrigued. I'm just a home cook, as I said, and I don't have the money for high end ingredients or the knowledge to mix different types of flour. I used King Arthur AP flour, Challenge salted butter, and ice water from the tap. This was hands down THE BEST pie crust I have ever made in my life. But I'm not referring to the flavor so much as the flaky texture. The flavor was delicious and my family raved over it. But I will always make my pie crust on the kitchen counter now, flattening the butter with my hand, cutting it up with the scraper, knowing that if I keep going the water will mix in and I will get the texture right. No matter what recipe I may choose to use, this will be my method of choice from now on. Norcalbaker59, thank you for reminding me of that wonderful pie crust making method at exactly the right time (holiday baking time).
 

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Egg white is used to seal the crust so filling want make the bottom soggy.

I made pie crust every day for weeks until I got it right and consistent.

Ratios are key:
Flour 100%
Fat 80% (you can use less, but I wouldn't recommend less than 70%)
Water 25% to 30% (water is tricky because flour absorbency varies by lot, type, and brand)
Salt 1% (DISSOLVE SALT IN ICE WATER)
Sugar 7% (for sweet pies only)

I estimate 20 grams of flour per 1" of pie plate. When calculating flour don't forget to add 2" inches for sides and 1" for tucked and crimped edge. So for 9" plate, flour will be calculated for 12".

Flour matters. I prefer 55/45 blend of all purpose to pastry flour.
The organic unbleached all purpose flour I like is protein 10-10.5%; ash 56%; hard red winter wheat; malted
The organic unbleached pastry flour; protein 10%; ash 52%; soft white wheat

I prefer Central Milling flours.

Butter matters. Higher fat butters work best. But don't use a pliable brand like kerrygold. It's too soft and makes a greasy crust. I prefer Pulgra.

Cultured butters will work well, but some brands like Vermont Creamery with 86% butterfat can be greasy. I like Trader Joe's cultured butter, but it's salted, so reduce the amount of salt if you try it.

Dissolve the salt in the ice water--do not add it to the dry ingredients.

Making dough by hand is the best way. Using a food processor or pastry cutter will chop the butter into bits to small to make a really flaky crust. Butter needs to be flakes. It takes me all of 5 minutes from start to finished dough.

Cube the butter and chill it. Toss butter into dry ingredients to coat the butter. Then use the heel to flatten butter cubes into flour.

Use a rolling pin to roll over butter and flour. This will create long butter flakes. Use a bench scraper to cut up butter flakes. Repeat rolling and cutting several times until nearly all the flour is incorporated into the butter.

Make a well in the center and pour in salted ice water. Use bench scraper and with a folding and cutting motion, cut flour into the water until water is absorbed,

Now here's where you need to have total faith that the dough with come together. This is similar to rough puff pastry technique, but it works beautifully for pie crust.

Roll dough into a rectangle 1/2" thick. It will be crumbly. Have faith. Use bench scraper and fold crumbs into tri-fold.

Turn it a quarter turn using bench scraper. Yes, it will be crumbly. Have faith. Roll it again into a rectangle 1/2" thick. Tri-fold. Quarter turn. Yes it will still be crumbly...don't lose faith. Repeat this two or three more times. I swear the dough will come together in 4 to 5 turns.

Divide, wrap, and chill the dough at least 2 hours. I prefer overnight.

Let dough sit out for about 20-30 minutes before you roll it to make your pie. The cold butter will be hard, so it needs time to soften.

Tips on pie:

Roll the dough, do not stretch it. To prevent stretching, turn the disk after each pass of the rolling pin. If the dough sticks to the counter, you'll be stretching it, not rolling it. A stretched dough will be tough. So turn the disk with each pass.

Brush off excess flour after dough is rolled.

Freeze the dough in the pie plate for 10 minutes before filling and baking.

Place oven rack on lowest position.

Preheat the cookie sheet. The heat from the sheet will help bake the bottom faster, and reduce the chance of a soggy and/or half baked bottom.

Bake hot. I bake hand pies at 375 degrees. Whole pies at 400 degrees.

Use an egg wash for best browning.

Pie dough freezes beautifully. Make extra. Roll and cut into circles. Freeze 20 min on a cookie sheet. Then stack with wax paper between circles. Wrap stack well and put in freezer.

To use, place a frozen disk over the pie plate. The dough will gentle sink into the pie plate as it thaws.

I'm totally obsessed with pie:)
I just have to say: Wow! Read this a few days ago and decided to change it up and use your recipe. I made a quince pear pie to run tonight as a special. It truly is delicious. It puffed up a bit like puff and had an amazing structure. It was tender but not crumbly. Thanks!
 
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