[Ravekage]

Hello everyone,

I am sure this is a question that has been posted many times, but I would really appreciate your help and opinions on this matter.

I am a home cook, have no professional experience and have almost zero knowledge about knives. I recently decided to purchase my first "real" knife. After perusing countless reviews on multiple websites, I have come across three brands in particular. MAC, Shun, and Victorinox. To be completely honest, I fell in love with the Shun knife. I really like its aesthetics, the history of the knife, and the quality. Though there are a lot of positive reviews, there seem to be quite a bit of negative reviews as well.

I guess the question I want to pose is this: is the Shun Classic 8" a solid choice or is there a different Japanese brand that you would recommend?

I plan on using the knife for all sorts of cutting, dicing, and slicing. I understand that Shun knives require more care than other brands and I am willing to invest the time it takes to keep it in good condition.

Thank you in advance for any help or insight that you can offer.

 

[rick alan]

First thing, shun classic is not a Japanese knife, it is essentially a German Knife using Japanese steel. It has no exalted history, and its "quality" is questionable.

Whereas F+F is pretty good on Shun, blade quality is very mediocre. As example, a Tojiro DP is a better cutter in that it has a better profile and grind, also in VG-10 and with an HT no worse than you'll find with Shun, yet it sells for half the price. Shuns classics require no special care, unless you wish to maintain the faux damascus finish, and chincy decal (which will wear off eventually no matter what).

VG-10 is usually not easy for a beginner to sharpen, and anyway so comes the obvious question, how will you keep your new knife sharp?

 

[sgsvirgil]

First off, welcome to CT.

Secondly, take some time and peruse the cooking knife forum. You will find a lot of very good information from some very knowledgeable people about a wide variety of knives. You should understand that choosing a knife is a very personal choice and what may be good for one person is typically not going to be good for another person. However, IMO, the knife brands you have selected are perfectly fine for any beginner.

When choosing a specific knife, you should decide what the knife will be used for. A chef's knife is a good all around work horse and will serve you well in a variety of ways from prepping veggies/fruit to cutting meat and proteins to filleting some fish. You should research what type of blade and bevels suit your needs i.e. a thin blade or a "v" bevel vs. a "hollow grind" etc. Here is a good website that will explain to you the differences and what the different bevels can be used for.

https://knife-depot.com/pages/a-guide-to-knife-grinds

If your knife skills are not well developed, I would strongly encourage you to take some time and develop those skills before you move up to one of these knives. Some of them are literally as sharp as scalpels and can slice your flesh to the bone before you even know what happened. There are many good resources on the web that can help you develop good knife skills that will minimize any risk of injury.

If you have any specific questions, please don't be shy.

Good luck!

 

[brianshaw]

...

 

[Ravekage]

First thing, shun classic is not a Japanese knife, it is essentially a German Knife using Japanese steel. It has no exalted history, and its "quality" is questionable.

Whereas F+F is pretty good on Shun, blade quality is very mediocre. As example, a Tojiro DP is a better cutter in that it has a better profile and grind, also in VG-10 and with an HT no worse than you'll find with Shun, yet it sells for half the price. Shuns classics require no special care, unless you wish to maintain the faux damascus finish, and chincy decal (which will wear off eventually no matter what).

VG-10 is usually not easy for a beginner to sharpen, and anyway so comes the obvious question, how will you keep your new knife sharp?

Rick,

Thank you very much for your reply and for the information. I had no idea that was the case. It seems I formed an erroneous opinion of the Shun knife based on the things I read online.

To answer your question, I would like to learn how to sharpen the knife myself.

 

[Ravekage]

First off, welcome to CT.

Secondly, take some time and peruse the cooking knife forum. You will find a lot of very good information from some very knowledgeable people about a wide variety of knives. You should understand that choosing a knife is a very personal choice and what may be good for one person is typically not going to be good for another person. However, IMO, the knife brands you have selected are perfectly fine for any beginner.

When choosing a specific knife, you should decide what the knife will be used for. A chef's knife is a good all around work horse and will serve you well in a variety of ways from prepping veggies/fruit to cutting meat and proteins to filleting some fish. You should research what type of blade and bevels suit your needs i.e. a thin blade or a "v" bevel vs. a "hollow grind" etc. Here is a good website that will explain to you the differences and what the different bevels can be used for.

https://knife-depot.com/pages/a-guide-to-knife-grinds

If your knife skills are not well developed, I would strongly encourage you to take some time and develop those skills before you move up to one of these knives. Some of them are literally as sharp as scalpels and can slice your flesh to the bone before you even know what happened. There are many good resources on the web that can help you develop good knife skills that will minimize any risk of injury.

If you have any specific questions, please don't be shy.

Good luck!

sgsvirgil,

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I have spent a good amount of time looking at various threads and I do understand that buying a knife if a very personal choice. Which is why my question really wasn't about whether or not the Shun knife is the best. What I am concerned about is not getting my money's worth. I don't want to pay for something that is overpriced.

I plan on using the knife for everything, so I definitely want to get a Chef's knife. I've read that the Shun classic 8" can be used as one, but on some forums I have read that it doesn't really work that well as a chef's knife. At least not as well as other French or German knives. Is that true?

Again, thank you very much for your reply.

 

[Ravekage]

First off, welcome to CT.

Secondly, take some time and peruse the cooking knife forum. You will find a lot of very good information from some very knowledgeable people about a wide variety of knives. You should understand that choosing a knife is a very personal choice and what may be good for one person is typically not going to be good for another person. However, IMO, the knife brands you have selected are perfectly fine for any beginner.

When choosing a specific knife, you should decide what the knife will be used for. A chef's knife is a good all around work horse and will serve you well in a variety of ways from prepping veggies/fruit to cutting meat and proteins to filleting some fish. You should research what type of blade and bevels suit your needs i.e. a thin blade or a "v" bevel vs. a "hollow grind" etc. Here is a good website that will explain to you the differences and what the different bevels can be used for.

https://knife-depot.com/pages/a-guide-to-knife-grinds

If your knife skills are not well developed, I would strongly encourage you to take some time and develop those skills before you move up to one of these knives. Some of them are literally as sharp as scalpels and can slice your flesh to the bone before you even know what happened. There are many good resources on the web that can help you develop good knife skills that will minimize any risk of injury.

If you have any specific questions, please don't be shy.

Good luck!

sgsvirgil,

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I have spent a good amount of time looking at various threads and I do understand that buying a knife if a very personal choice. Which is why my question really wasn't about whether or not the Shun knife is the best. What I am concerned about is not getting my money's worth. I don't want to pay for something that is overpriced.

I plan on using the knife for everything, so I definitely want to get a Chef's knife. I've read that the Shun classic 8" can be used as one, but on some forums I have read that it doesn't really work that well as a chef's knife. At least not as well as other French or German knives. Is that true?

Again, thank you very much for your reply.

 

[Ravekage]

...

Thanks for the interesting read. I'll keep that in mind as I continue to search for a knife.

 

[brianshaw]

How well a knife works for you is based a lot on what knife profile you prefer and how it matches your personal style. The Shun Classic is a German profile. I’m not alone in finding it an acceptable knife. In fact, right now my go-to knives For home cooking are 8-inch Shun Classic and Premiere. I also use chef knives with French and Japanese profiles. They work just fine too. Personally... I don’t find any chef knife profile to be so much more superior than another that I’d get into a religious war about it. VG-10, as has been mentioned, isn’t the easiest to sharpen but it’s not impossible either. Good luck with finding the knife (or knives) of your dreams. Welcome to ChefTalk!

 

[Ravekage]

How well a knife works for you is based a lot on what knife profile you prefer and how it matches your personal style. The Shun Classic is a German profile. I'm not alone in finding it an acceptable knife. I also use chef knives with French and Japanese profiles. They work just fine too. Personally... I don't find any chef knife profile to be so much more superior than another that I'd get into a religious war about it. VG-10, as has been mentioned, isn't the easiest to sharpen but it's not impossible either. Good luck with finding the knife (or knives) of your dreams.

I think that is where I'm having trouble deciding. This is the first time I've seriously considered buying a "good" knife rather than using whatever is lying around. As such, I have no idea what knife will match my personal style since I am not very sure what my style is. All I know is that I want an elegant and versatile knife that I can use for almost everything; though I know quite well that is not very helpful when deciding on what knife to buy. Thanks! Hopefully I can find the right one. Out of curiosity, what knife did you first start with?

 

[brianshaw]

... so what kind of cooking do you anticipate using your knife for?

 

[brianshaw]

I think that is where I'm having trouble deciding. This is the first time I've seriously considered buying a "good" knife rather than using whatever is lying around. As such, I have no idea what knife will match my personal style since I am not very sure what my style is. All I know is that I want an elegant and versatile knife that I can use for almost everything; though I know quite well that is not very helpful when deciding on what knife to buy. Thanks! Hopefully I can find the right one. Out of curiosity, what knife did you first start with?

I first started with Henckels FourStar, way back when, at the suggestion of Chef Wolfgang Puck. Google Ma Maison if you want to know how long ago. . They still serve me well today. They are tough knives but don't get as sharp as knives with harder Japanese steels. The harder steels are definitely capable of a finer edge but also more susceptible to edge damage... sometimes even in the course of fairly normal food preparation. So I still use them (the Henckels) for hard squash or breaking down chickens and the like. Since then I've accumulated a bunch of knives in a variety of form factors and steels.

 

[Ravekage]

I first started with Henckels FourStar, way back when, at the suggestion of Chef Wolfgang Puck. Google Ma Maison if you want to know how long ago. . They still serve me well today. They are tough knives but don't get as sharp as knives with harder Japanese steels. The harder steels are definitely capable of a finer edge but also more susceptible to edge damage... sometimes even in the course of fairly normal food preparation. So I still use them (the Henckels) for hard squash or breaking down chickens and the like. Since then I've accumulated a bunch of knives in a variety of form factors and steels.

Currently I am really interested in Japanese cuisine, and on a daily basis I cook Colombian dishes or come up with something from the things that I have in my fridge. I'm a big meat eater, so I'll definitely be using a lot of meat, but I also enjoy a variety of vegetables and I am hoping to expand my knowledge of greens more.

That is what I have read, It'll be terrible if I buy a beautiful knife only to damage the edge with my ignorance. Though at the same time, I'll never learn if I don't try to use them. I've heard lot's of good things about Henckels, especially seeing as how they are the gifts presented to the Hell's Kitchen chefs, hahaha.

 

[rick alan]

It's been brought up before but I guess it could use reiteration. The big-bellied German profile did not even exist till the mid 20th centeury, and it was a marketing innovation, like the full bolster, and definitely not a performance feature. The full bolster was actually a blob of metal that was part of the manufacturing process, and that got removed in the finish grinding. Some French marketing dude got the brilliant idea that the feature looked cool, gave the "appearance" of quality, and it was also cheaper to leave that pita of a blob on, so the idea quickly caught on. The Germans eventually figured the big full belly profile made full-bolster knives easier for none pros (those without a big grinding wheel to trim back the bolster) to sharpen without developing a concave edge profile due to the bolster getting in the way. It also made it possible to rock to high angles, which was necessitated by making knives thicker and heavier, which actually was cheaper as it reduced warpage problems. The heavier knives were more difficult to lift completely off the board. Edges subsequently also became thicker, as it was more expensive to remove all that metal. Ahhh, the great mysteries behind marketing. Bottom line, good knife and good technique wants neither full bolster or big belly.

That piece of history done, Ravekage, what's your budget for a knife and starter stone(s)?

 

[Ravekage]

It's been brought up before but I guess it could use reiteration. The big-bellied German profile did not even exist till the mid 20th centeury, and it was a marketing innovation, like the full bolster, and definitely not a performance feature. The full bolster was actually a blob of metal that was part of the manufacturing process, and that got removed in the finish grinding. Some French marketing dude got the brilliant idea that the feature looked cool, gave the "appearance" of quality, and it was also cheaper to leave that pita of a blob on, so the idea quickly caught on. The Germans eventually figured the big full belly profile made full-bolster knives easier for none pros (those without a big grinding wheel to trim back the bolster) to sharpen without developing a concave edge profile due to the bolster getting in the way. It also made it possible to rock to high angles, which was necessitated by making knives thicker and heavier, which actually was cheaper as it reduced warpage problems. The heavier knives were more difficult to lift completely off the board. Edges subsequently also became thicker, as it was more expensive to remove all that metal. Ahhh, the great mysteries behind marketing. Bottom line, good knife and good technique wants neither full bolster or big belly.

That piece of history done, Ravekage, what's your budget for a knife and starter stone(s)?

That was absolutely fascinating!! Thank you very much for sharing that piece of history with me! Who knew that my journey to find a good knife would have led me to learn so much about steel and knife making. What a trip!

I don't want to pay more than $200 for the chef's knife and honestly, I haven't yet looked at prices for starter stones, but I don't want to pay a fortune for them.

 

[sgsvirgil]

sgsvirgil,

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I have spent a good amount of time looking at various threads and I do understand that buying a knife if a very personal choice. Which is why my question really wasn't about whether or not the Shun knife is the best. What I am concerned about is not getting my money's worth. I don't want to pay for something that is overpriced.

I plan on using the knife for everything, so I definitely want to get a Chef's knife. I've read that the Shun classic 8" can be used as one, but on some forums I have read that it doesn't really work that well as a chef's knife. At least not as well as other French or German knives. Is that true?

Again, thank you very much for your reply.

Fundamentally speaking, if you choose a knife from a reputable manufacturer, chances are good that you will get your money's worth. Shun, Wusthoff, Henckels, Messermeister etc. are all reasonably good in quality and will do nicely as any beginner's first "real" knife. My point is until you get some mileage under your belt, you don't have to spend a fortune on a knife.

Eventually, you will outgrow your first knife and move on to something more aligned to your style. By then, you will have more of an idea of what your preferences are.

By the way, there are many videos on youtube that will teach you anything you want to know about knives, including how to use sharpening stones.

Good luck.

 

[Ravekage]

Fundamentally speaking, if you choose a knife from a reputable manufacturer, chances are good that you will get your money's worth. Shun, Wusthoff, Henckels, Messermeister etc. are all reasonably good in quality and will do nicely as any beginner's first "real" knife. My point is until you get some mileage under your belt, you don't have to spend a fortune on a knife.

Eventually, you will outgrow your first knife and move on to something more aligned to your style. By then, you will have more of an idea of what your preferences are.

By the way, there are many videos on youtube that will teach you anything you want to know about knives, including how to use sharpening stones.

Good luck.

sgsvirgil,

I am actually very happy to hear that. Knowing that I can't really go wrong with buying a knife from a reputable manufacturer makes choosing a knife a whole lot easier. I'm not planning on spending a fortune since this will be my first time, and as you mentioned, I will outgrow it one day when I have a better feel for my personal style, so I think I can just go ahead and buy whatever catches my eye. Hopefully no matter what I decide to go with, it will allow me to learn more about knife sharpening and maintenance so that I can be fully prepared for the next one.

Thank you so much for the help!!

 

[Niftynorm]

One thing that is important is how the knife feels in your hand. If possible go to a store where you can heft the different knives and learn what the handles feel like. I understand that this isn't always possible but it will give you a good starting point. Also think about taking a basic knife skills class through a local kitchen store or adult ed. It will give you a good starting point on handling and safety.

 

[sgsvirgil]

sgsvirgil,

I am actually very happy to hear that. Knowing that I can't really go wrong with buying a knife from a reputable manufacturer makes choosing a knife a whole lot easier. I'm not planning on spending a fortune since this will be my first time, and as you mentioned, I will outgrow it one day when I have a better feel for my personal style, so I think I can just go ahead and buy whatever catches my eye. Hopefully no matter what I decide to go with, it will allow me to learn more about knife sharpening and maintenance so that I can be fully prepared for the next one.

Thank you so much for the help!!

You're welcome.

Let us know what you decide.

Cheers!

 

[rick alan]

Well I don't quite agree with sgsvrigil's 2nd to last statement. Compared to what is available elsewhere, shun wusty and henckles do not present a good dollar value in general, by a long shot. In fact the only knives from those that are competitive with front runners in their price range, that I have heard of, are: the very basic wusty Pro which is comparable to the Vic Fibrox; and the shun blue series 7" kiritsuki when it is on sale for $70 (which is a good deal if you can catch it). The Zwilling-Henkles/Miyabi 5000 mcd 67 is a good buy, but that is a $350-400 knife.

How a knife feels in hand is greatly overrated, as with good technique just about any acceptable handle/blade combination will do, especially for the home cook.

As far as damaging a blade with poor technique, the use of excessive force along with inadvertent twisting of the blade when making board contact are the 2 things to watch out for. Simply master control of these 2 and you will have nothing much further to worry about. Dull knives make control of force and finish much more difficult, which is why it is often said that dull knives are more dangerous than sharp ones.

Some suggestions:

At the low end the MAC Chef series HB-85 is a very good choice. Good cutter and a tough knife that doesn't require much babying

Next up the Geshin Stainless series, great cutter. Tough, but of course thin at the edge.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...imports.com/collections/gesshin-specials/products/gesshin-stainless-210mm-gyuto

At the top of your budget I'd pick the Geshin Gonbei hammered. Great edge retention as well as cutting ability. Lots of bling.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gonbei-210mm-hammered-damascus-wa-gyuto.